SONG Out of Business?

[P38JLightning]

Song v/s ComASA

Medflyer,

Good points, however the chances of a Delta customer getting to NCE on Delta is probably around 50% or less. Delta finally flies there every day again, but "code share partner sky team alliance member" Air Frawnse goes several times a day, every day, from Paris.

Of course Delta will be the ones getting you to Paris, right? Don't bet on it. Every Delta/AF city pair is either outnumbered or outgauged by AF. Many (Like JFK) by a massive margin.

I'm sure Delta resuming everyday service has more to do with the pending slam dunk international grievance that ALPA is pushing, claiming (rightfuly so) that Delta has been giving too much flying to the international "partners". Were it not for Delta pilot scope holding the company together, phasing out Delta international (and giving everything except a few London/Paris gravy routes) to the "alliance members" would be the topic of Jerry's brandy sniffing board room meetings instead of Song. Don't believe me? Just check out "Delta's" Pacific route structure. You can get anywhere in Asia, from any major city in America, just not on Delta.

General,

Jerry is admitting that Song is profitable. Cool. Now how come no one is calling him on it? I mean, he's saying Song is profitable and will see huge growth in the future, but yet they have the highest paid 757 pilots on earth, with the best work rules too, oh yeah, and a sweet retirement. Does he think no one will notice this? Where's the full page AJC ads exposing this labor bashing Jerryatric hack for what he is?

Of course now I hope you finally believe that Comair and ASA are profitable. Don't say "well we can't know for sure". Comair has almost identical costs (except 1-20% higher PILOT ONLY costs) compared to other DCI operators. ASA with their old contract is cheaper than Comair, and in line with the others. Why would we NOT be profitable? Oh yeah, higher pilot costs. Yep, that's the end all. Well except for Song and even Delta mainline. But for DCI pilot costs are paramount.

Don't even try that Song spends money on advertising or something. Song doesn't spend money on anything, Delta does. No numbers are available, but we have to trust the CEO's now because they speak from the heart cause they don't wanna go to the slammer, so when they say Song is profitable we believe them, but when they say ASA/Comair are profitable, well we suspect that.

Of course further proof that Song is profitable comes from Delta's decision to give them more growth aircraft. In fact, to grow them around 50%. They wouldn't do that if they were profitable. Of course when Comair/ASA are getting growth, their profitability is suspect. Of course management is punishing Comair for being the only pilot group so far (not including ExpressJet and ASA) to stand up to management and refuse to whore themselves for growth and fast upgrades, so you could say that Comair not getting any "growth jets" is indicative of us not being profitable.

Of course "our" CEO Jerry says we are. We're still getting 6 more 70 seaters this year. The DOT numbers say we're very profitable (unless you are charging that management is lying to the government?) and why would we not be? Oh yeah, higher (in some cases just slightly higher) pilot costs are to blame. Except for Song of course.

I agree with Jerry when he says more than 2.5 hours in an RJ is "crummy." But I don't know if he believes it. There he was talking about how he didn't like Song and was considering abandoning it, rah rah mainline. Now its a sudden about face and they're growing. Then he says he doesn't like RJ's. I immagine mainline pilots like to hear that. Gives them hope. He says this at a time when he's still ordering loads of RJ's, and also during a time when he's going all out for pilot cuts.

I wonder, if out of the OTHER side of his mouth, he is seeking "scope relief" from the restrictive mainline contract in addition to pay cuts so he can get more RJ's, larger RJ's, and less restrictions on the use of RJ's, all far away from the confines of the Delta PWA and pilot seniority list.

Nah, he wouldn't do that. He's a mainline man! Right?

 

[H82BL8T]

As soon as Delta stops focusing on ‘taking market shares’ away from JetBlue and turns its attention to customer service and productivity (ooops, secrets out - again), they and other legacy carriers will have a chance to survive and maybe prosper. Leadership within management and unions don’t seem to understand these simple concepts.

 

[G4G5]

I would not worry about Delta. They are doing the same thing that every other major is doing. They are crying poverty in order to renegotiate every contract that they have.

Delta's debt burden is no worse then AMR's $20 billion or the load that UAL will carry once the reorganize for the Xth time.

As far as Song goes, I have been opposed to the idea from the day it was announced but if it's making money and taking market share, then how can you argue with that?

I flew Delta last week, $625 one way from LGA-SAV. Their were three of us on the flight all paying the same price. It was the direct CRJ flt and it was completely full. I am positive that they made money on that flt.

Now that I pay for a ticket I will let you in on something
I could have gone to ATL and connected to SAV on mainline, all 757's. Not interested, I would rather suffer through the RJ and go direct, the same was voiced by my coleagues. So, service is not the driving force.

People don't care about service. Sure it's something that they consider BUT, they want CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, then direct. In that order.

Business folks want DIRECT DIRECT DIRECT (the more frequency the better) then cheap in that order.

Service may be the determining factor if prices are the same BUT most folks will choose Departure/Arrival times and Departure and Arrival airports over service if the price is the same.

The other thing that helps Delta is the FF. Bottom line people like to think that they are getting something for nothing if the price is equivallent.

Service only ranks high among the folks who write the magazine and newspaper articles. I don't know one person who would say," the departure airport is not what I wanted, the arrivial time is not so great, screw the FF points, ah who needs direct flights, a connector that adds 2 hours to my day is ok" but because the service is good I will pay an extra $50 bucks. Let's be real folks domestic flying has turned into bus driving.

 

[General Lee]

AA717driver,

First of all, Airtran doesn't go to IND. (not yet, anyways) Secondly, I just drive the boat---the people in the back that provide the service are probably all old--making top pay, and won't get more than a 3% pay cut. Does that seem fair to the pilots to have to take a 40% pay cut (over all) and the rest not really take any? Now you can see our point. I wish we could flush out some of the older ones and bring back the furloughed younger stews that enjoyed their jobs---but I am not in charge...


blahsmah,

The thing we are dealing with now is future debt payments. Our Dalpa team knows all of the numbers, and is on top of this. Our last quarter was OPERATIONALLY profitable---by the tune of $116 million for the quarter---the WORST quarter historically. But, we still paid $102 million for RJs that quarter, and will pay another $500 million for RJs next year alone. The problem here is that RJs are not the answer in low fare environments---and Grinstein is starting to realize that. The Song 757s can carry 199 passengers, and have quicker turn times. That, along with better utilization of aircraft(that is productivity-----not necessarily raising the flying cap hours)---can produce a lot of revenue. If you only use your aircraft 7 hours a day when Southwest uses theirs 12-13 hours a day---you have less chance of producing enough revenue to pay the daily expenses....(crew costs, insurance, daily lease payments....)


P38,

Yesterday in the AJC our MEC Chair Malone had a rebuttel (sp?) in the editorial page--and that was a good response. I also wish he would wage a larger media war--but he is doing more now than he did in the last couple months.

As far as who is profitable, in a low fare environment competing directly against LCCs---the RJs will lose. Can you make a profit on a 50 seat RJ when it has to compete at a $50 fare against an Airtran 717? Nope. Can you make a profit when your RJ is the only way to get to Peoria from ATL? Yes. The LCCs are growing, and the only way to squeeze out revenue is to lower costs (ie pilot pay cuts), and to fly larger aircraft with more seats. It has taken a while for Song to become profitable because most people had no clue who Song was.....Over Xmas and Spring break--people were FORCED to fly Song if they wanted to go to FLA from the NE--and I bet a lot liked it and will return. Jetblue took a while to become profitable too.

Did Jerry lie to us at CVG? I don't know---and he will have to back up all of that rhetoric with proof in his AUG plan if he wants us to vote for it. He had a lot of interesting things to say, and he admitted a lot of failures in policy--especially with the RJ use. He said people expected to go on mainline planes and instead were often put on smaller RJs and "that wasn't right." Was he just feeding us lines? Maybe. We won't vote for a plan that results in more lost jobs at mainline...He claimed more Asia flying, more West Coast (where he is from), etc....We shall see......

G4G5,

You can see the whole picture. We can too---and we see large debt payments also. We know that we must help with those, and we will offer help and hopefully they will accept it and we will move forward. The negotiating door is still open.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[On Your Six]

G4G5,

I bet a 100-seater on that route would have been more comfortable than the CRJ and possibly more profitable... But DAL hasn't made any decisions on the 100-seaters yet. DAL needs to get its act together with regard to the 100-seater - like JetBlue and AirTran's discontinuance of CRJ service. Nonstop flights are better than connections in most cases - but I bet some of those CRJ passengers were not too happy with the cramped conditions for mulitple hours... The CRJ is the worst RJ from a passenger standpoint in my opinion - what's up with the low windows????

Delta needs a 100-seater soon....

 

[General Lee]

On your Six,

Has Delta made a decions yet on the 100 seater? I bet they have. They have looked at every one of them and have test flown them too. This was done a couple years ago, but I am sure they have been waiting for the right time to order--like after a huge concession. I was told more than a year ago that the airbus A318 was the leading contender then---but then things have quieted down. I bet there will be a large concession made, then the senior guys will create another "Delta Express" style outfit for the junior guys---giving a lot less pay etc... There is no way Dalpa will give up any 100 seat flying--they will just screw the junior guys over and remain in their widebodies at fairly good pay--while the junior ones get a lot less and work harder. That has happened in the past(96 contract), and it will happen again.

Bye Bye---General Lee


PS---P38lightning---here is the editorial comments response from Malone in the AJC:

EQUAL TIME: Delta's pilots always ready to do fair share
John J. Malone - For the Journal-Constitution
Monday, April 19, 2004

A few short years ago, Delta Air Lines was earning record profits amid a booming economy. Today, the airline is fighting for its survival and no one is more concerned than its employees, including the pilots. Unlike corporate executives who have taken their "retention" packages and moved on, the pilots are tied to this company.

Since Sept. 11, 2001, pilots have agreed to amend our contract many times to help Delta save money and compete. By waiving a portion of our contract, we allowed Delta to enter into a revenue-generating domestic code-share arrangement with Northwest and Continental. Another waiver permitted Delta to operate Song, an "airline within an airline." Thousands of U.S. troops were flown to war by Delta pilots after we amended our contract to make it easier for Delta to do this.

All of these concessions pale in comparison to the bailout package the pilots have been offering for almost a year. Our continual efforts to help over this period have been met with "all or nothing" demands from management. Regardless, we will continue to try to do our part to help the company.

Labor is just one part of the recovery equation. The pilots' union has offered hundreds of millions of dollars even though Delta has shown no evidence of a business plan that will enable it to compete effectively within the airline industry. Even those network carriers that have obtained worker concessions have yet to become profitable.

One only has to look at the losses incurred at United, American and U.S. Airways to see that labor alone cannot turn the tide. While it's easy to point to employee salaries, the "low hanging fruit," when a company is losing money, cutting labor costs alone is not the answer. An effective strategy must also include the elements that historically have set Delta apart from its competition, such as customer service and employee morale.

Much of the outcry over Delta's situation emanates from parties with absolutely no stake in the airline's recovery. We, the employees, have the most to lose should our airline not survive.

We didn't create the current situation, and only the most uninformed observer would conclude we can solve it by our givebacks alone.

We will continue to negotiate our participation in Delta's recovery as we always have --- in a businesslike manner, with the interests of the pilots, our fellow employees and our passengers foremost in mind.

John J. Malone, a Delta captain, chairs the airline's pilot union.