Something I have not seen posted.

[airman2105]

What is the advantage of not having a union?

 

[Bjtdrvr]

Nothing! Other than 1.52 percent of my pay. It doesn't even cost the company anything either except they can no longer unilaterally change working conditions at a whim. That is the real reason for their decert push. TOTAL CONTROL!

 

[EnFuego]

Yes, this is about power and control. Management don't want us to have any power and control over our careers. Did you attend the unity rally last night? Because there were a lot of APA, SWAPA and ALPA pilots supporting all of us Teamster pilots in our effort to retain some power and control over our careers! Vote IBT Airline Division!

 

[airman2105]

Yes EnFugo, I was there and good to see all the support. I'd like to see some anti union opinions on this.

 

[Honorstudent]

There is no advantage whatsoever to the pilots to not have a Union, the advantage would totally go to the company in longer duty tours and fewer days off to crew A/C in a pilot shortage market, Companies ability to cut benefits and pay ad-hoc, I’m not saying that they would do this, however let’s be real. When push comes to shove in a down economy that is exactly where they will and have made there cuts in the past.

 

[CALRepublic]

I support the NJASAP 100%, and the union PROS far outweigh the CONS

I wouldn’t say that this is a benefit of not having a union, but one thing that most of us (or maybe all of us) complain about is that the union has the obligation to defend the trouble makers. Just flew with a guy who said he usually fatigues twice a week, whether he works hard or not, and he won’t start work earlier than 8am two days in a row....

 

[airman2105]

Taking advantage of the system won't be supported by the union, they would call the pilot out for stepping out of line? In the days after Bombardier if you called in fatigued, RH would look back on your schedule and tell you that you had not done enough to be fatigued, you should not have called in fatigued so it was difficult for anyone to make the fatigue call and they would fly tired. There could be a number of issues that cause tiredness like a noisy hotel, accidental fire alarm etc but a regular pattern of fatigue calls won't be supported and is just abusing the system.

 

[airman2105]

Ok I posted this at 22:28 on May 9 and the anti union guys can't come with a good reason not to have a union. So we must have a union. VOTE IBT1108.
It is 21:10 on 10 May and no constructive reason not to have a union.

 

[jonjuan]

What is the advantage of not having a union?

It benefits those who are truly selfish, so there’s that.

 

[EnFuego]

It may seem like it benefits the truly selfish in the short term, but once the Union goes away, they lose all the bribes they collected to buy their votes. Remember what red label is really supposed to be: three pilots staffing each airplane. Run it like a corporate flight department and fly it like a fractional. So those guys will have 4-6 days off a month. And don't forget what Kenn says in the first Roundtable video (at the 1:30 mark) about the airplanes needing to be available for 16 hours a day. Forget the 14 hour scheduled duty limit. Add 100% rolling rest and suddenly it's not much of a life for the truly selfish at that point.

 

[jonjuan]

It may seem like it benefits the truly selfish in the short term, but once the Union goes away, they lose all the bribes they collected to buy their votes. Remember what red label is really supposed to be: three pilots staffing each airplane. Run it like a corporate flight department and fly it like a fractional. So those guys will have 4-6 days off a month. And don't forget what Kenn says in the first Roundtable video (at the 1:30 mark) about the airplanes needing to be available for 16 hours a day. Forget the 14 hour scheduled duty limit. Add 100% rolling rest and suddenly it's not much of a life for the truly selfish at that point.

Selfish in that when $$$ gets thrown someone’s way and they take it knowing they are stepping over someone with greater seniority. Like it or not, seniority seems to be the only workable solution for a large group of pilots. Seems to work very well at the airlines. There have been cases where some pilots pushed for things like being able to sell vacation (fly more for more $$$). While lucrative for a small group for a short term, it would ultimately hinder growth and hiring as the company could then do more with fewer. Then people would complain about growth and seat progression. In many cases, the union would prevent pilots from hurting themselves. With no
Union, who gets to upgrade? Who determines pay, qol, etc? Can you imagine an owners wife saying, son you really look tired. Should you be flying? I’m not sure, but I have bills to pay and can’t risk not flying when your husband explodes and asks for me to be fired.

 

[rajflyboy]

Seniority (Should) matter

 

[RubberDuck]

If the 1108 as we know it a Flexjet had true Unity as you claim, then there wouldn’t be a decert vote in progress. The current Flexjet 1108 representatives are a bunch of self loathing self centered with a God complex attitude. It’s time for you to be gone, just like all the other outfits you’ve been kicked out of, your just not worth the headache. Vote NO representation! And yes 2n will always get the Union he deserves, it just won’t be the 1108.

 

[DirtyBeech]

If the 1108 as we know it a Flexjet had true Unity as you claim, then there wouldn’t be a decert vote in progress. The current Flexjet 1108 representatives are a bunch of self loathing self centered with a God complex attitude. It’s time for you to be gone, just like all the other outfits you’ve been kicked out of, your just not worth the headache. Vote NO representation! And yes 2n will always get the Union he deserves, it just won’t be the 1108.

Please tell us about the alternative.

<crickets>

 

[airman2105]

It really does not matter which union you are in because they all work together so saying one is not good enough because 2N says so. He will have the same problem with any union that says no once in a while. And just so you know, the Teamsters are not bad people, they are the same as you and me. They would never stop you from getting a pay rise or extra vacation or bonus but people try to make out they are stopping the company improving itself. Only one person playing that game like a kid in his sandbox.
You are still not telling us how things will get better without representation. We know all about the desert vote but that does not say much about anything.

 

[Dirty Squirrel]

Please tell us about the alternative.

<crickets>

This drive IS about decertifying the Teamsters and and nothing else. When I've spoken to others, for the most part, they are not anti-union. They are anti-Teamsters.

As a Flex original, I thought the smart play was to "give Kenn a year", like he asked. Everything we heard about Kenn from the Teamsters was how awful he is and how much our life will be hell. As Flexjet pilots, we had to make a choice whether to believe the Teamsters or Kenn Ricci. We had not lived under Kenn long enough to know if what you guys said was BS or not. I took my chances by voting no the first election.

This time, Kenn asked for a year again. If he doesn't deliver, than the pilot group can organize once again. Who's going to want us? We'll cross that bridge if we have to, but I doubt we will. In my opinion, the last thing Kenn wants to do is to cause a union to come back after one is voted out.

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I support the NJASAP 100%, and the union PROS far outweigh the CONS

I wouldn’t say that this is a benefit of not having a union, but one thing that most of us (or maybe all of us) complain about is that the union has the obligation to defend the trouble makers. Just flew with a guy who said he usually fatigues twice a week, whether he works hard or not, and he won’t start work earlier than 8am two days in a row....

A check airman told me the stats of Flex vs. Options pilots calling fatigue. It was mind-blowingly lopsided!

 

[DirtyBeech]

This drive IS about decertifying the Teamsters and and nothing else. When I've spoken to others, for the most part, they are not anti-union. They are anti-Teamsters.

As a Flex original, I thought the smart play was to "give Kenn a year", like he asked. Everything we heard about Kenn from the Teamsters was how awful he is and how much our life will be hell. As Flexjet pilots, we had to make a choice whether to believe the Teamsters or Kenn Ricci. We had not lived under Kenn long enough to know if what you guys said was BS or not. I took my chances by voting no the first election.

This time, Kenn asked for a year again. If he doesn't deliver, than the pilot group can organize once again. Who's going to want us? We'll cross that bridge if we have to, but I doubt we will. In my opinion, the last thing Kenn wants to do is to cause a union to come back after one is voted out.

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A check airman told me the stats of Flex vs. Options pilots calling fatigue. It was mind-blowingly lopsided!

It’s only anti-Teamster because the majority of decert voters haven’t bothered to educate themselves about their choices. It’s the 1108 or nothing. All other avenues were explored last time, and FJ was turned down by every one but the 1108.

In house? A grievance costs $125,000 to settle in court. Supposing every cent went to grievance settlement and nothing was required elsewhere the FJ pilot group would have about 16 grievances to settle per year for 600ish pilots. Welcome to having no teeth.

Saying, “oh, we can organize again in a year if Ricci treats us bad” ignores the fact that you’ve just given yourself 2-3 years of hell before another union, and it’ll be the 1108, can get back on property.

Btw, Kenn is 0 for 3 with regards to just giving him a chance. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me four times, and you’re a f’ing idiot. Thinking he’s going to behave THIS time to keep a union off property is naive in the extreme. He’s a scheister, a con man, believes in underpaying the majority of his employees and doesn’t feel overly constrained by the law. But I’ll give him this, he’s consistent about it. And he seems to have no lack of blinder sporting pilots who’ll ignore his consistent past in the hopes he’ll do better this time. And that’s why he’s going to run roughshod over you. Just like he always does.

 

[EnFuego]

This drive IS about decertifying the Teamsters and and nothing else. When I've spoken to others, for the most part, they are not anti-union. They are anti-Teamsters.

As a Flex original, I thought the smart play was to "give Kenn a year", like he asked. Everything we heard about Kenn from the Teamsters was how awful he is and how much our life will be hell. As Flexjet pilots, we had to make a choice whether to believe the Teamsters or Kenn Ricci. We had not lived under Kenn long enough to know if what you guys said was BS or not. I took my chances by voting no the first election.

This time, Kenn asked for a year again. If he doesn't deliver, than the pilot group can organize once again. Who's going to want us? We'll cross that bridge if we have to, but I doubt we will. In my opinion, the last thing Kenn wants to do is to cause a union to come back after one is voted out.

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A check airman told me the stats of Flex vs. Options pilots calling fatigue. It was mind-blowingly lopsided!

Hmm, Kenn bought us December 2013. The election was December 2015. Now, I'm not a math major, but I'm pretty sure that's 2 YEARS FOR KENN. How many more years are we going to give him? 2 years is enough. I'm original Flex too, and this false assumption that Kenn didn't get his chance is ridiculous! Vote IBT Airline Division. Give the Union one year of section 6, and then you can decert if we don't have better.

And that check airman forgot to tell you we (original Flexjet pilots) have almost three times as many downlink sick calls as the Options pilots. In other words, we are afraid to call in fatigued because of the intimidation. So we burn our PTO instead. If you compare the numbers, they are quite close. But don't let facts stand in your way.

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

This drive IS about decertifying the Teamsters and and nothing else. When I've spoken to others, for the most part, they are not anti-union. They are anti-Teamsters.

As a Flex original, I thought the smart play was to "give Kenn a year", like he asked. Everything we heard about Kenn from the Teamsters was how awful he is and how much our life will be hell. As Flexjet pilots, we had to make a choice whether to believe the Teamsters or Kenn Ricci. We had not lived under Kenn long enough to know if what you guys said was BS or not. I took my chances by voting no the first election.

This time, Kenn asked for a year again. If he doesn't deliver, than the pilot group can organize once again. Who's going to want us? We'll cross that bridge if we have to, but I doubt we will. In my opinion, the last thing Kenn wants to do is to cause a union to come back after one is voted out.

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A check airman told me the stats of Flex vs. Options pilots calling fatigue. It was mind-blowingly lopsided!

Hmm. Live in fear or do the right thing when fatigued? Tough choice if you are standing alone. I did it twice my time over there. It was like I was asking for the moon or something. And that was BEFORE the guy with the perfect fake teeth.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

2 years to make things right? 2N Kenn has been around since day 1. Ok he wasn't CEO but he was on the board the whole time. Moral problems and low pay can only fall on one side and that is management. What has been the real cost to the company and the employees? BTW ask the office people when the last time they got a raise.

 

[Dirty Squirrel]

I believe the context of “give me a year” a year was without involvement of a third party, whether one agrees or not.

 

[EnFuego]

I believe the context of “give me a year” a year was without involvement of a third party, whether one agrees or not.

I called one of the organizing committee members and asked when they started their campaign. It was January 2015. DAC bought us in December 2013, so there was a whole year before the campaign started. In that year we lost ALL of our accrued vacation, 3% of our 401k contributions and our STIP. But we gained out of seniority upgrades! Kenn did have a full year with no Union and no organizing at Flexjet. And we lost ground the whole time. That's why the organizing campaign started AND why the majority voted for a Union.
Vote Yes IBT Airline Division!

 

[airman2105]

I called one of the organizing committee members and asked when they started their campaign. It was January 2015. DAC bought us in December 2013, so there was a whole year before the campaign started. In that year we lost ALL of our accrued vacation, 3% of our 401k contributions and our STIP. But we gained out of seniority upgrades! Kenn did have a full year with no Union and no organizing at Flexjet. And we lost ground the whole time. That's why the organizing campaign started AND why the majority voted for a Union.
Vote Yes IBT Airline Division!

Yes that is a fact and the vote was won on 15 December 2015. One of 2N's first moves(at start of his takeover) to show he was the boss was to tell us to sign a piece of paper and send it in within a week or our seniority would be gone. That says it all. IBT1108 will prevent acts of bravado from the boss. There was no need for him to force us to sign anything. It takes the "family" approach out out of the equation. Now I have to say the word family is being over used lately....is that supposed to make everyone feel secure? Remember you can't always trust some family members so why use the word!!!

 

[Bjtdrvr]

Remember that he wanted to purchase Citation Air just prior to Flex but didn't want the Citation Air pilots. He easily could have kept them especially since he was preaching fantastic growth upcoming. BUT again if he had taken them there would NOT have been a revote on the union because the combined FO and CA group (which included furloughees) would have been more than the 65 percent requirement for a revote. He has had an agenda from the beginning of the Flex acquisition and it had nothing to do with the betterment of the Flexjet pilots. They HAVE ONLY BEEN PAWNS in his game against the union from day one. If you think he has your best interests at heart think again. It is all business with him as demonstrated by his recent termination of the FA. Who cares if they were given a great severance package? Is that what we want in 5-10 years if we vote out the union? An industry leading severance package especially if we only have a couple of years left till retirement? A secured contract which denotes how a furlough will occur is paramount when the economy crashes again (and it will) He will have to increase wages to attract pilots now in this market. Let's get it put into writing now in a contract. He has also let slip that he has 12 million waiting to be distributed to the pilot group. Great! He can still do that with in the guidelines of our contract which is always amenable with an loa. In fact that is a great talking point for the new mediator.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

12 Million? Just to make the math easy, let's say we have 600 pilots. That comes out to $20,000 per pilot. I'm $40,000 underpaid, so he better be ready to fork that out every 6 months. The Gulfstream guys didn't get their $ 80,000 in bonus either, but then again they gambled with Kenn's pay scheme and lost. Buyer beware.

 

[airman2105]

Just looked at a picture of 7 angry people with middle finger extended towards an IBT1108 van....what a class act! The union meeting was way more orderly and civil without animosity.....with many, many more than 7 but we are the thugs.
The picture only displays an agressive management style.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Sorry. It shows a desperate management style. How will they repair that damage before the company collapses?

 

[MOMOMOJO]

I believe the context of “give me a year” a year was without involvement of a third party, whether one agrees or not.

As others have pointed out CGF had a year before the campaign at Flexjet even started and look what they did with it.

As for the 2 1/2 years since the vote, if Mr. Ricci or management really wanted to prove we did not need the union or a contract they had many opportunities to show they are reasonable people only interested in the betterment of the entire company, pilots included. Instead they handled it almost the opposite of that message.

I'm not an anti-Ricci guy at all. I respect what he's done with his life and I'm grateful for the job and opportunities. However, I agree 110% as a professional my work should be honored with a contract the same way we have contracts with our owners and vendors. Why a union contract? Because Mr. Ricci himself, smart man that he is, said his entire business philosophy is to do what he wants, how he wants it and then let the detractors sue and have the courts figure it out. He has made a billion plus with this philosophy. He's good at it. You know who's not? Me. Sorry. I need someone who has the skillset, experience and deep pockets to protect me where I can't. I have medical insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance etc... The IBT is career insurance.

While I am not anti-Ricci (the same way I'm not anti shark or anti bear) I have been completely let down by our management team. I am now strongly anti management. The daily RH rants have won more to the union's side than not. The latest where he feels the need to attack one of our own (in addition to violating some privacy concerns) was not just worrisome it was disgusting and pathetic. I sincerely hope regardless of the outcome Mr. Ricci is paying attention and will rectify the truly divisive elements that have reared it's ugly heads during the campaign. It might be too late to win my vote but I'd be impressed if Mr. Ricci immediately addressed this latest disgusting antic. It's just one of 100 from this repeat offender.

If the union wins and Mr. Ricci is looking for a scapegoat he need look no further than his management team, including certain instructors. The use of the bully pulpit and ranting style and tone of all management communications (including MS and JW) has been the biggest let down and eye opener of this entire ordeal.

What a mistake. Paint the union as thugs and we all expected it. Instead, we get pleasantly surprised when they're not. Then instead of being the kind benevolent management team we are promised if we vote no representation send out bullish, thugly communications, tactics and policy from your management team and we start to wonder why there's even a decert.

I thought these Ogletree Deakins busters were supposed to be professional and know what they're doing. I'm not impressed. I hope Mr. Ricci got some kind of guarantee for his millions.

 

[EnFuego]

The Handschuch rants are particularly divisive and offensive.

 

[Kermit_D_Frog]

Useful idiot comes to mind.