Something Bush refused to do...

[Timebuilder]

If there's so much to hide, was the military testing new weapons on American citizens during the standoff?

Hey, I hear a helicopter....it's a black helicopter!!!!

 

[Typhoon1244]

...it's a black helicopter!

...making a chemtrail!

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Re: Wesley Clark is an A$$hole

I
This guy has no integrity or compassion. He does not care about anyone or anything but himself. Some of the traits of great military leaders are protecting their subordinates, giving them credit, and getting them promoted. General Clark ruined more careers covering his own butt than any general or flag officer I know. He could care less about their getting promoted and was a master at taking credit for their work while simultaneously making it look like they were all f'd-up and only his greatnessed turned a pile of $hit into a pot of gold.

The vast majority of those who worked for General Clark hated and diepised him. It would be a sad day for this country if he got elected President.

Not to be cynical, but I think the above traits are all too common in many politicians (as well as business leaders) today. "It's all about ME". I've heard similar comments from other former military folks about Gen. Clark as well.

 

[flywithastick]

...making a chemtrail!

Timebuilder, Typhoon -

Your making light of the murders of those children and their parents, etc. at Waco is truly low. The US Federal government (BATF, FBI, US Army, etc) murdered them for one or more of three reasons.

1. Revenge for the loss of the original BATF officers who attempted to storm their complex with handguns, jumpboots, cattle trailers and aluminum ladders (not very well thought out).

2. Irritated that anyone would challenge *their* authority, so they burned and shot them.

3. It was sporting to get *live* targets, so they could use their equipment. Ref pic link below.

http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/guyontank.jpg

there were black helicopters there, Timebuilder. US Hueys. Spotting fire against the people (children) inside.

There was "black" armor there too, Timebuilder. Used to carry troops, er, I mean police up to the building and fire ~400 incindiary CS gas cannisters inside the wood frame building.

And finally, yes, Typhoon, there were chemtrails at Waco. Those of the cs gas used against the kids in that building. It's accepted knowledge that there was more than enough cs gas pumped into the buildings to kill those kids.

Try and picture the hell those 41 mothers and children went though in that concrete room....

The cs gas would have made breathing and vision near impossible. As the heat from the incindiary cs gas rounds caught the building on fire, now we have smoke making vision and breathing near totally impossible. How are they going to get out?

From one of the forensic reports -

"There was a particular instance where all that remained
was the arm and hand of a mother clasping a small child's hand
and the remains of an arm."

I've seen pictures of a 6 yr old who died not from flames, not from bullets or crushing concrete or structure. She died from cs gas inhallation. Would be glad to PM you the link. It's quite disturbing.

It's the same stuff that's prohibited by international war crimes law in 1969. Can you imagine how that small child you've got pictured as your avitar would handle breathing that stuff?! I have kids and it tears me up to this our government did this to kids just like mine.

pretty flippant, heartless comments TB, Typhoon.

 

[Timebuilder]

Your making light of the murders of those chilren and their parents, etc. in Waco is truly low.

I don't think you quite understand.

The Black Helicopters reference is a nod to the conspiracy theory crowd: chemtrails, black helicopters, aliens meeting with the Pope or President (depending on which supermarket checkout paper you read) and other such stuff. I realize that some helicopters are actually painted black, such as the Customs helicopter they display every year at sun n fun.

I don't think that anyone, particularly me, is unmoved by the tragedy of Waco. Your list of reasons is interesting, but faniciful. What is the personal responsibility? Let's look.

First, anyone who reads the Bible is to use discernment. This includes asking oneself if they have become involved in "cult" activity. Since Koresh had identified himself as the returned Messiah, this group was clearly a cult. In that situation, having realized this, the only correct decision is to take your children and GET OUT.

Second, anyone who shoots at BATF agents deserves to be taking fire himself. More than any others, this person or persons bear the responsibility for the deaths of the Branch Dividians.

You don't shoot at law enforcement and expect a calm and rational discussion that goes on endlessly. If you are a nut to begin with, and it is clear that Koresh was a nut on all counts, then you can expect a shooting of agents to bring a rain of fire on you. Maybe this is what this particular nut wanted. Maybe this could have been handled better from the beginning, taking Koresh into custody when he went into town. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

It is a tragedy that people joined his group, that they shot at agents, that they refused to leave when ordered, and that they died.

The only ones who died are those who did not exit the compound when ordered to do so. Period.

 

[flywithastick]

The only ones who died are those who did not exit the compound when ordered to do so. Period.

So, the children got what they deserved. I've heard others who believe this. heartless and not rational.

 

[Timebuilder]

So, the children got what they deserved.

Apparently, you aren't listening.

Who is responsible for the children?

Their parents.

The parents are 100% responsible for their children's deaths if they could have avoided them by coming out or sending their children out. They could have overpowered Koresh and carried him out bound and gagged. They could have don a great many things.

None of this has to do with the children "getting what they deserved".

That is absurd.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Flydood

there were black helicopters there, Timebuilder. US Hueys. Spotting fire against the people (children) inside.

Look guys, those UH-1s were from my unit. There were NO US Army pilots on board those helicopters. The FBI came and picked up one for Cyops (to make lots of noise), crashed it into some wires, and then came and got another one. All we got was a call from III Corp telling us we had to give the helicopters to the FBI. The morons that flew them out of Hood AAF didnt even call the tower to depart. They just got in (no preflight) and went. I got the phone call from the tower telling me such. There was no spotting fire against the people inside from any US military personnel. The three Chinooks that you may remember seeing on CNN the day the fire broke out were piloted by US Army pilots. They were configured with 24 litters each to carry patients to DFW med center. How do I know this? I was there! The equipment used was military, but Clark was only the 1st Cav Division Commander. The III Corp Commander (his boss) would have been the one that got the call. Clark could not have acted on his own accord. Furthermore, the equipment was directed by a higher command to give the required equipment needed to the FBI and ATF. There was never any talk in any meeting that even insinuated that a military person would be used to fire upon any civillian. That is why Federal agents were killed and no military. The only involvement with regards to the APC's and tanks were the drivers and crew members to operate them. Not there weapons systems. They were using some of the then classified thermal imagry systems, etc. the tanks had to offer.
I am in no way condoning what happend there, but the media has a way with stretching the truth to substantiate their agenda.

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks, Tim. This exactly what I expected to be the case, not a Posse Comatatus violation.

 

[flywithastick]

Apparently, you aren't listening.

I'm listening very well, TB. You're just not convincing me.

The kids were there. Everyone knew it. The BATF came in there, in part to "protect the abused children". Remember?! I do. That's why the jack-booted thugs came blazing in with their guns drawn and shooting... "to protect the kids".

Someone must forgot why they were there... you think?

If ol' David Koresh was so dangerous and elusive, then why didn't they just arrest him whne he made his numerous shopping trips to Waco? the local sheriff would have been just fine for that job... but the federal boys wouldn't have got to suit up and make the raid, would they?!

Tim 47SIP -

I don't hold any ill will against anyone except the federal police, and the gutless Texas Rangers who covered for them. Thanks for your service.