Some Thoughts on the TA Situation

[TailDraggerTed]

I know I may get a lot of junk for saying this, but after reading the comments on this board for the past few weeks I need to say something...



Much of the disappointment, dissatisfaction, anger, attitude, protests, etc. I am reading about should be directed toward the union, not NetJets. The union did not adequately set expectations or inform its members. NetJets offered a fair (not great or good, but fair) deal under the eyes of the federal mediation board. If you aren’t happy, talk to your union. It appears that they let you/us down. Did you voice your thoughts and fears before the TA was created? Unfortunately, it appears to be too late to change the TA unless the pilots are willing wait another few years for the next (and possibly worse) version of a TA to vote on.

I realize that the situation could be a lot better for the pilots and their families. If the TA came about 3 years ago when the economy and fractional business was soaring, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Doing anything that would hurt NetJets business would make the chance of profitability and raises even worse. The union was selected to be our/your eyes and ears. If you are unhappy, talk to the union. Harming your/my employer or their business can not possibly create a positive outcome.



If you think I am right or wrong, you are welcome to respond.

 

[jtf]

Is it true that if the TA is rejected that it would take forever again to get another due to the terms of the Railway Labor Act or is this a guess about how long it would take based on how long this TA took to be negotiated?

 

[MovingTarget]

TA Adjustments

Griz,

Did the Teamster's Scope Attorney mention any type of time frame this tweaking of the TA would take? Is this a set process with specific steps?

 

[Hawkered]

Can I have my lucky numbers now? Do you read palms as well Griz?

 

[bigD]

Hawkered = Les Paul

 

[Hawkered]

Nope...not equal to!

 

[netjetwife]

Stop dragging your tail, Ted!

There is nothing mystical about it, just plain old-fashioned common sense. We've all negotiated for something--houses,cars,flea market finds, etc-- at one time or another. Those universal rules are just as applicable here. You don't take the first offer, always start higher or lower (depending on if you're the buyer or seller) than where you want to end up, and settle in the middle. Just as true, is the fact that some of us are better than others when it comes to getting a good deal. The MEC is guilty of breaking rule #1, clearly they CANNOT be used as a yardstick to measure the timeframe of the next round of negotiations, nor the chances of success for the new MEC/StrongUnion.

A member of our wives group, has worked on several contracts as the president of her MEC for the FAs that she represents. She assured me that it IS the goal of the NMB to get a deal wrapped up as soon as possible, and that both parties are free to meet on their own as often as they like, outside of meetings with the NMB. Judging by their perceived lack of enthusiasm in the DVD "infomercial", I believe it's safe to assume that BB and RS are as anxious as anyone to reach an agreement with the pilots so that, they too, can move on to other things.

Taildragger, most of us ARE pointing the finger of blame in the right direction. The cries of dump the MEC are just as strong as the injunction to VOTE NO on the POS TA! Furthermore, the high number of petitions turned in already should leave no one in doubt as to the general disatisfaction with Local 284.

Another universal truth is that unhappy, disgruntled workers are bad for business. Management is under NO illusion that the pilotforce is anything other than frustrated and angry these days.

Final thought: I firmly believe that apathy and a defeatist attitude on the last contract is to blame for the position we all find ouselves in today. (It may be the only thing we agree on). Luckily, this insulting TA was the slap in the face that most needed to wake them up! Sadly, some of the brothers are still sleep-walking and have failed to shake off their pessimistic outlooks. Taildragger (what a fitting name), it must be pointed out that you are among that subgroup--- "Unfortunately, it appears to be too late to change the TA unless the pilots are willing wait another few years for the next (and possibly worse) version of a TA to vote on." WRONG! You don't get what you don't ASK for! Shake it off, Ted! Join the fight!! Don't you like winning??

 

[transpac]

Good God, lady. Give it a rest! It started out as mildly interesting to learn something about a spouse's perspective, but it's getting pretty old by now. The bottom line is you have no standing and no credibility to complain about either Netjets management or the MEC.

 

[Live4flyng]

TailDT

Much of the disappointment, dissatisfaction, anger, attitude, protests, etc. I am reading about should be directed toward the union, not NetJets. The union did not adequately set expectations or inform its members. NetJets offered a fair (not great or good, but fair) deal under the eyes of the federal mediation board. If you aren’t happy, talk to your union. It appears that they let you/us down. Did you voice your thoughts and fears before the TA was created? Unfortunately, it appears to be too late to change the TA unless the pilots are willing wait another few years for the next (and possibly worse) version of a TA to vote on.

I agree in part with what you are saying about pointing the anger toward the union. Don't worry, that process is under way. BYE BYE MEC and Local 284! There are two sides to every pancake though. The company got a little too greedy and came in with an insult offer, not even close to fair. Now it is going to take much longer to come to terms, and more than likely they will be negotiating with a whole different group of union folks during this next round. Since you are on the company side, you probably already know what I am about to say. The company needs this contract done more than the pilot group at this point. 91K or Part 135 whichever they choose to use in February will have an effect on the operation, the current contract protects the pilots, the T/A protects the company. It is also very difficult to move forward with merger plans when you don't know what the cost of labor is going to be for the next SIX years. I don't believe I have heard any pilots trying to damage the company, just stating facts that were presented by the company. "We are Broke".

I am willing to wait as long as it takes to get it right. The Gateway/RCA crap alone is more than enough for a NO vote, much less the pay cut. Pilots are fools if they vote YES on a T/A that divides the group, it's a sure way to break the union. There are too many reasons in this POS to vote NO, start reading it if you are a pilot. 30 LOU/LOAs attatched to the end of a contract that hasn't even been ratified yet, hmmmm.

 

[netjetwife]

Good God, lady. Give it a rest! It started out as mildly interesting to learn something about a spouse's perspective, but it's getting pretty old by now. The bottom line is you have no standing and no credibility to complain about either Netjets management or the MEC.

That is YOUR OPINION, which you are entitled to, but I will not "give it a rest", based on your sayso. I have received a lot of support from wives AND PILOTS for interjecting the family perspective. If YOU don't want to "hear" it, put me on your ignore list.

Standing=I am the wife of a pilot whose company's policys affect my life and those of my children, in a direct personal way.

Credibility to complain=Who is better qualified, than I and/or my husband, to say whether or not the company and MEC have helped or failed our family? Additionally, the NJ Wives group that I speak for gives me direct feedback on how their families have been impacted by the company and MEC and THEY--wives and pilots--appreciate my efforts.

Complaining=Had the MEC not failed so miserably at their job of representing the pilotforce, none of us would have VALID complaints to lodge against them!

 

[SkyGirl]

Warren Buffet/ Berkshire Hathaway has opened up the books to unions in the past to demonstrate that he was negotiating in good faith - did he do that with the NetJets union negotiators?

 

[Flex]

Berkshire Hathaway did NOT open their books, however NETJETS did. This is all quite amusing though, considering the shell game that NETJETS and its subsidiaries fall under. NJI, NJM, NJE, NJME, NJA just to start. The MEC saw the books, signed the confidentiality agreements, and they came back with the company line: "the company is poor, can't afford to pay what you want." Where did the money go? NJI gulfstream orders, NJA G150, G200 orders ($4 billion dollars), NJE (expansive growth) the purchase of Marquis (our former 135 marquis card distributor (see first season of Trump's "the apprenctice"), just to start. Not to mention squandering millions on "operational" costs with mid and high level management (we have 42 vice-presidents at Netjets Aviation alone). Starting to get the picture, Skygirl? You are correct in what you say about our Union and MEC. We aren't happy with them. And they are GONE. By the end of the month, they will be gone, as will our local shortly after. We will remain in the Teamsters, under our own local. Once that happens, get ready for a new round of negotiations. Probably AFTER 91K comes into effect (Feb '05). Most Netjets pilots agree the TA is no good, and most are willing to wait another few months for a better shot with the ball in our court.

 

[netjetwife]

News flash about this "broke" company.

I just now received--from FedEx--my BOOMERANG salespitch DVD. I call it a boomerang because I had refused it last week when they first sent it out! Overnight delivery then as well. How can anyone deny, that this company IS attempting to SHOVE the TA down our throats??? And that they DON'T waste gobs of money on bogus things??

I personally spoke to a pilot in our gateway who had complained about the waste he was seeing, only to be told not to worry about it that "the company has deep pockets". This pilot also happens to be a CPA AND CVA (CVA is the next level above CPA--they verify and analyze the books) who had offered his services to the MEC and was furious that they had used an economist (think general theory) instead! To put it into perspective for me, he sited a job he had, as a CVA, done for a bar and grill--he worked on their books for 11 DAYS. The economist spent ONE DAY going over the company's financial information!

 

[njfltcnter]

I've pulled the messages and will leave the board. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

 

[netjetwife]

Customers can and will be impacted.

It's just common sense that labor problems bleed over into other facets of a business. Pilots will stop pushing themselves when they're not feeling their best. They will DNIF at the slightest excuse. There will be no more going above and beyond the call of duty--a practice that has helped to give NJA its glowing reputation. Low morale does have a way of making itself felt in the changed atmoshere on a job site, and in the case of frac pilots, that job site includes direct interaction w/the owners. The company knows this; it's common knowledge. They have a vested interest in seeing things return to normal, too.

 

[njfltcnter]

pulled message and left the board. SOrry to offend.

 

[FracCapt]

You're right that there is a section of the pilot group that goes above and beyond. And it's always to cover the shortcomings of their fellow crews.

Right there you just removed all doubt about whether or not you are either a management stooge or an MEC member trying to push the "best TA possible". You obviously know NOTHING about pilots.

BTW, I don't work for NJA....but I do know many NJA pilots, and meet a lot more of them on the road every day...and even from my perspective, it's easy to tell exactly what you are. When will you guys learn that you don't help your cause when you spew outrageous nonsense?

 

[netjetwife]

It happens more than you think!

One of the wives in our Online Support Group filled us in on her situation in her first post. Money is very tight for them since her husband hurt his back LOADING LUGGAGE and is currently on disability. His surgery is scheduled for later this month. My husband comes home w/aches and pains all the time. It happens.

 

[Flex]

How a guy can "hurt" himself moving bags is hard to explain.

Obviously you've never worked a day of hard labor in you life. Watch it that you don't burn your lips on your coffee. Go down to the "netjets cafe" and look on the wall. You will see a large board with accidents and on the job injuries. Pilots top the list on a monthly basis, ABOVE mechanics, FAs and certainly any flight center personnel. Come join me on the next PGA tour, I'll have you throwing golf bags, love to see how you feel after a week of that.

 

[Diesel]

njfltcntr- once again a fine example of how somebody upstairs has no idea what we do on an every day basis. Sure they have that pretty pilot's liscence but that's about it. Of course they think they know our job since they've flown a couple of times.

You have no idea about sweating to death while loading 4 pro golf bags and then trying to get the rest of the luggage in the plane. Then the owner tips the line guy when your done.

How about spending the morning trying to unscrew the screwup from upstairs that told the owner we can go out of HTO wet.

How about trying to figure out how to get to the hotel when there is no cab, it's 3am and you've got a nice 10hr turn.

My back hurts after every week on tour. Thankfully i've been lucky that I haven't blown out my back like some guys I know.

So enjoy your airconditioned office, the netjets cafe, and being able to sleep in your own bed at night.

 

[Live4flyng]

Unbelievable!

Just to add to what Diesel said.....

How about those scheduled 20 minute turns when 2 SUVs of bags and people roll up. Pager going off every 5 minutes asking for your ETD?????? No crew food was ordered for the 3rd leg in a row. After meticulously loading 15 bags and 8 pax, release says there is enough fuel to make it 1300NM and have a whole 800#s of fuel remaining after landing at TEB, barring no delays. After serving coffee and drinks to PAX, finally get engines cranked only to have a line guy running across the ramp saying you have an important phone call from the company. Shut down, answer phone and they want to know what time you are taking off and why there is a delay. Gee, I wonder?

The company has actually gone out of it's way to not question crews on mx or fatigue at all.

This is a good one! Hard to argue with maintenance and safety items. Fatigue has been induced by the very flight center you are working in. 14/10 every day causes fatigue, the regs make it very hard for our gracious company to argue with that. These airplanes are getting the crap kicked out of them. When you fly a business jet 1000+ hours per year that was designed to fly a maximum of 400 hours per year, things will break. Are you suggesting that NJA crews fly broken airplanes? Maybe you have forgotten what NETJETS sells.....SAFETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have always said that Dispatch is the best group of people in the Flight Center. Usually they agree with the pilots, when the company insists on some crazy plan. I can only hope your attitude doesn't bleed over to the rest of the good dispatchers we have. Maybe you should get an ATP and a few thousand hours and come on over to the dark side. I know of one former flight coordinator we have as a line pilot now in the G-200. His perspective of what we do as pilots is dramatically different then when he was watching CNN on those big screens, and checking e-mail in the casino.

Just the view from where I'm sitting. Am I wrong?

Completely Wrong! There is absolutely no work slow down going on. You will know it when/if that time comes.

You're right that there is a section of the pilot group that goes above and beyond.

There used to be a section of about 1800 pilots that would do this. That number has gotten so small and it continues to shrink everyday. This may be the reason you think there is a slow down. The goodwill is gone, most are not willing to bend over forwards or backwards anymore for the company.

And if you think about it the more we vendor trips the worse the company's bottom line will look and the next TA will look even worse than this.

And how would you know this? If NJA has such a flawed business plan that it can't pay its' pilots a descent wage and have enough airplanes to cover all the trips it is selling; then you are correct. There won't be a next T/A, Netjets will be out of business. Stop blaming pilots for all the waste the flight center creates. Your so called "work slow down" may just be a lack of enthusiastic pilots willing to continue fixing all of your mistakes. If you don't know what you are taking about, you should "read the board a little while" longer before chiming in with a bunch of garbabge.

 

[netjetwife]

Njfltcnter, I'd like your opinion please.

One of the wives in our Online Support Group has corporate management experience and has done research for the rest of us. She has broken down the labor costs at NJA --Based on 1800 pilots, those workers are 45% of the 4000 total employees with the other 2200 making up the remaining 55%. Here is how the money is divided between the workers:

PILOTS--45% ARE PAID 25% OF THE MONEY

OTHERS--55% ARE PAID 75% OF THE MONEY


There is no way to justify this, as our corporate expert pointed out. But do feel free to try, Njflcnter.

 

[Lord Wakefield]

Just to add to what Diesel said.....

How about those scheduled 20 minute turns when 2 SUVs of bags and people roll up. Pager going off every 5 minutes asking for your ETD?????? No crew food was ordered for the 3rd leg in a row. After meticulously loading 15 bags and 8 pax, release says there is enough fuel to make it 1300NM and have a whole 800#s of fuel remaining after landing at TEB, barring no delays. After serving coffee and drinks to PAX, finally get engines cranked only to have a line guy running across the ramp saying you have an important phone call from the company. Shut down, answer phone and they want to know what time you are taking off and why there is a delay. Gee, I wonder?

I sitting here reading this an am stunned. I thought I was the only one this had happened to but didn't think people would believe me if I told the story and so I didn't. We need to do something to help those screen readers get the big picture.

 

[njfltcnter]

To All on this post.


I just wanted to say that I went way overboard and made statements that was true. I've been having plenty of problems of my own and I made a serious statement that wasn't true. Griz, I apologize for stepping over the bounderies of good discussion. I really hope that you guys get what you are after with the new agreement. But just to restate I didn't mean to offend anyone and I did. For that I am sorry. I will just sit back and read the discussions and not participate anymore. Again I am sorry.

 

[Publishers]

business

What does the below have to do with absolutely anything???? Please have your person with all that "corporate management experience" come up with something relevant to something. Just one small example, just how to account in that for flying done on behalf of Netjets by others like EJM etc. Is the money paid to those crews in these numbers.

Do something like figure if the allocated crew cost per aircraft is less than or more than crew cost on an owner flown aircraft.


"One of the wives in our Online Support Group has corporate management experience and has done research for the rest of us. She has broken down the labor costs at NJA --Based on 1800 pilots, those workers are 45% of the 4000 total employees with the other 2200 making up the remaining 55%. Here is how the money is divided between the workers:

PILOTS--45% ARE PAID 25% OF THE MONEY

OTHERS--55% ARE PAID 75% OF THE MONEY


There is no way to justify this, as our corporate expert pointed out. But do feel free to try,"

 

[netjetwife]

Publishers, you are taking my post out of context. It was directed at Njfltcnter--one of those in the 55% taking 75% of the compnay's available funds for wages. I asked him to justify that disparity--IF he could. As the NJA pilots are soon to vote on a contract, that piece of info is relevant to them, and may be of interest to pilots of other companies that are also underpaid. Perhaps it will spark a discussion of the distribution of salary money within other frac companies.

In the example you ask about concerning EJM flying, I'd say that that sounds like an operating cost...NOT a salary question. This information is ONLY the breakdown of wages paid to the 4000 NJA employees.
I wonder why Njfltcnter didn't render an opinion on the salary split??

 

[Publishers]

Probably because it is such an inane piece of logic that even I hesitated to comment only made worse by your calling the outsourced flights an expense or even calling it money for distribution available for funds for wages. There is no such thing.

Secondly, there is no disparity. What is it "supposed to be". What ratio is acceptable. How many people should it take to run this kind of operation?

In this thread there has been some good points, but this is totally idiotic. If I have a company with a great many older aircraft, I may have 4 times the number of maintenance personnel than another company. None of this means anything.

What most of these fractionals are doing is hustling like hell to overcome some costs for deadheads and other inefficiencies this approach has. The point I was trying to make on the outsourcing of flights is that the number of people at Netjets is reflective of all the flying, whether it is Netjets, EJM, our Vendor supplied. You need dispatch, customer service, etc.etc. for whatever the total flying is. You need pilots only for what you fly. If your argument made any sense at all-- which it does not-- you would have to figure in all that as well.

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks for backing me up, Griz! Speaking of VPs....what do ya wanna bet that it was one of them that came up with the huge waste of money/ letter and DVD campaign? My what a productive lot they are! NOT!!

 

[Sarka]

What makes this issue doubly sad is that a great amount of the support folks; the flight managers, dispatchers and all the adminstrative folks at Bridgeway and Easton aren't raking in the bucks either.

I don't have the raw numbers to check netjetswife's figures but it wouldn't surprise me. We've got more Vice-Presidents than Carter has little pills. Vice-Presidents don't come cheap.

After this TA gets voted down, neither do pilots.

I can affirm what Griz is saying here. NJ did a study last year that compared NJ employee salaries (non-flying) with industry averages for similar positions and locations. Everyone was given the results that showed the industry averages for those positions and a pay range for their particular position. I, and everyone I have talked with (non-management), were very near the bottom of those pay ranges. The "screen-readers" are definately NOT the ones raking in the big bucks. Three percent pay raises annually for most, if anything.

I will have to say that we have had alot of VP's, but they seem to be cutting some of those postions lately. There still seems to be quite a few VP's running around here though.

 

[netjetwife]

At our Denver Road Show/Con Job, we asked if the MEC, in looking over the company financials, had seen the salaries for management. The answer was NO. Those of us in the room all thought that would have been a helpful piece of financial information to have. Typically, the MEC was not on the same wave length as the rest of us. They didn't get it. Hopefully, they will GET IT later this month when they are voted out of office.