So this asap thing...

[Paul R. Smith]

Lets say I file an asap(s) "outing myself" for something minor and then I have a major incident. I asap that incident. The asap will protect my certificates but my asap (asap history) will be used against me to take away my house and my earnings. Sounds great.

Is this about where we are with the asap program?

Has it gone this far?

So I guess a 45-50 percent wage increase is not gonna be enough. I'm gonna need "pilot error" insurance.

It would seem like we should keep CLAM,
loose lips sink ships... or whatever

Flame or discuss..

 

[regionaltard]

The Comair judge's shortsighted & misinformed decision should drastically reduce the number of sole-source ASAP reports being submitted in the future, effectively destroying the rationale for the program in the first place. ASAP was a great idea in theory, but between a few numbnuts managers who just couldn't let an opportunity to punish a pilot pass them by and this textbook case of judicial activism it's got one foot in the grave.

 

[Mamma]

Ok. From those of you upset over the age 65 law, here is your chance to do something about this. Email your congressmen and senators and tell them how you feel about it. Offer to let them contact you. Write your papers and tell them what this will do from a pilot's perspective. Note ATC and maintenance folks use these reports too! Sitting around and griping on chat forums will do nothing except lead to results like age 65.

Post the responses you get from your reps/senators here also! If you value the ASAP program get going on it now!

 

[pipe]

Would someone please post some background?

 

[nyboilermaker]

I think this is what they're talking about...from the Frac. board...

Aviation officials say ruling could jeopardize safety reporting​

2/20/2008, 9:15 p.m. EST By JEFFREY McMURRAY​

The Associated Press LEXINGTON, Ky. (AP) — A judge's controversial ruling in a Kentucky plane crash liability case has sparked concern across the aviation industry about the long-term survival of a popular program that allows air travel workers to privately report safety violations.​

U.S. District Judge Karl Forester, who is handling several lawsuits stemming from the August 2006 crash of Comair flight 5191 that killed 49 people, ruled Tuesday that the confidential reports can be admitted into evidence.​

The decision was a blow to Comair, the airline being sued, as well as Southwest Airlines, a national pilots union and the Federal Aviation Administration — all of which filed briefs arguing that the confidential reporting system could be undermined if its information is allowed at trial.​

Comair is based in Erlanger, Ky., near the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.​

Capt. John Prater, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents pilots who fly for Comair and 42 other airlines, said he would ask Congress to get involved to protect the Aviation Safety Action Program. It was created to allows pilots, flight attendants, air traffic controllers, mechanics and others to report problems without being identified, then pass that information on to the FAA to identify trends.​

Prater said he knew of no other time an ASAP report has been used in a liability case.​

"This has the potential of destroying the program nationwide," Prater said of the ruling. "That would be a travesty because these programs have made America's skies safer."​

Comair spokeswoman Kate Marx said the airline would continue to participate in the ASAP program despite the ruling but was exploring legal options. FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said the agency had supported Comair in its effort to keep the information private.​

Marx said she didn't know what specific information from the database was being targeted in the case.​

Forester, whose ruling upheld a similar one in the case last month by a U.S. magistrate judge, said Comair's argument "brings to mind cymbals banging together very loudly, foretelling the destruction of the ASAP program and unsafe skies for the public." He said if the reports are supposed to be off limits in lawsuits, Congress or the FAA needs to change the regulations.​

Southwest Airlines defended its rival in a court filing.​

"Quite simply, if airline industry personnel know that filing an ASAP report has the potential to embroil them in civil litigation, they will be much less likely to report potential safety problems," Southwest's attorneys wrote.​

Comair 5191 crashed the morning of Aug. 27, 2006, after trying to take off from a Lexington, Ky., general aviation runway that was too short. The plane clipped a perimeter fence and trees before crashing on a farm less than a mile from the airport, killing 49 of the 50 people on board.​

Lawyers for the families didn't immediately return calls Wednesday seeking comment.​

 

[mamba20]

Wow, I think thats a terrible judgement on the part of the judge for not understanding what the program is about. Techincally when your accepted into the ASAP program after you file a report you won't be prosecuted assuming what you did was unintentional. I wouldn't be suprised to see this case move to the appeal stage.

 

[IronCityBlue]

That dirt bag judge is going to harm aviation safety and will be responsibile for accidents in the future. All he cares about is his lawyer friends get to sink their teeth into some juicy 30% commission million dollar lawsuits. Why ever fill out an ASAP? NASA it if you messed up, and if its just a safety concern, just let it go.

 

[pipe]

I hate lawyers, but the judge is right. He doesn't get to decide what's "the greater good" here. His job is to interpret the law. The law doesn't exclude ASAP stuff.

All those ASAP briefings you get talk about how they will not be used for COMPANY or FAA retribution if they are accepted. I don't remember anything about lawsuits.

Who says these reports won't remain identity-masked? The plaintiffs may be trying to put together a case that shows how stand-ups, pilot pushing, and other management BS make Comair liable. Would that be so bad?

As long as these reports aren't being used to sue individual pilots, this may not be such a bad thing.

PIPE

 

[Broke in CVG]

You are missing the point! The reports are de-identified so they can't go after pilots. They are not talking about going after pilots! They are talking about going after the company. This is bad for one reason, the company will discontinue ASAP. They will not open themselves up to the liability of having the lawyers using the ASAP reports against them in a lawsuit. If the lawyers can prove through ASAP that the company was aware of a problem or trend then the company is going to remove ASAP so that paper trail is gone. Sole source events - keep them to yourselves - company doesn't want to know. They don't know - denial in depositions.

This is awful for aviation safety. ASAP has saved many of our butts as the reporter as well as made us aware of the things that others have done. Remember when you use to open Flying magazine or AOPA to the back and read "I learned about Flying from that..." The monthly publication of our company ASAP exerts was just that, a wake up call to the rest of us so that we could learn by the mistakes of others.

This sucks - BIG TIME.

 

[pipe]

I'm not missing any point. The judge is doing the right thing as the law CURRENTLY stands.

I don't think the ATA would have to do much to get legislation changing that law through congress.

But whatever, the law is what it is right now. You might be right - it could spell the end of ASAP, and that is a bad thing. Instead, hopefully, it highlights a problem that will be fixed in short order - thus protecting you and I in the future.

Most rules are written in blood.

PIPE