So really why do we fly if we ain't gonna get paid?

[Munga]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I am going through an early midlife.

I am currently about to leave aviation because I have finally figured out that I will never make the kind of living I truely want. I love flying - period. Its what I have wanted to do since I was about 6 years old. I now have been flying commercially for 10 years. 2.5 year of those were Part 135 king airs and the last 6 have been at Eagle where I haven't done anything but sit right seat in some pretty nice airplanes, make less than my age, and never have any holidays off while still on reserve.

So I have been offered a job, 9-5er, no experience, no training - and it is a decent pay raise with weekend and holidays off. Now I get to see my kids grow up, spend time with my wife, and possibly have quicker money.

But I love flying.....we used to be compensated for missing holidays and such, but 30K a year flying jets all over this country isn't worth it. And now a 6 year FO at NWA is making 60K - that means IF they start hiring after BK, say 3-4 years from now and I get hired, 6 years after that I could make 60K?? I won't upgrade at Eagle for another 1-3 years - if I am lucky.

No decent corporate outfit will call me back since I don't have a lot of pic, or time in type - besides I did the 6 days a week on call, and would rather not. Maybe I just want my cake and eat it too, but 60K 10 years from now won't support my family.

So why do we do this for so little? Is it the hope that we will one day return to the good ole days? Or is it purely that we are addictied to flying and will do it for almost no money? This is the hardest descsion - fly or be grounded until I can afford to do it for fun again.

 

[Sticky]

I hear ya man. I've been flying for 7 years now and still flying piston twins. Much like you, the thought of flying 50 pax in an RJ that used be a mainliner route really bothers me. The reason I'm still in pistons is because I'm able to pull in over $45K a year. I current can't afford to go down to $24K. Just like you, I've been looking to leave piloting. The best I can come up with is saving 15% a year and buy real estate ($5K single acre lots). After a few years, it's possible to do it full time and average $60K a year just buying and selling. Who knows?

What really stings my ass is how the regionals are now flying the same routes that the majors did just a few years ago for a fraction the pay. I hate seeing RJs flying between major cities. At some time, this has got to end.

Good luck with your endeavors.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I am going through an early midlife.

I am currently about to leave aviation because I have finally figured out that I will never make the kind of living I truely want. I love flying - period. Its what I have wanted to do since I was about 6 years old. I now have been flying commercially for 10 years. 2.5 year of those were Part 135 king airs and the last 6 have been at Eagle where I haven't done anything but sit right seat in some pretty nice airplanes, make less than my age, and never have any holidays off while still on reserve.

So I have been offered a job, 9-5er, no experience, no training - and it is a decent pay raise with weekend and holidays off. Now I get to see my kids grow up, spend time with my wife, and possibly have quicker money.

But I love flying.....we used to be compensated for missing holidays and such, but 30K a year flying jets all over this country isn't worth it. And now a 6 year FO at NWA is making 60K - that means IF they start hiring after BK, say 3-4 years from now and I get hired, 6 years after that I could make 60K?? I won't upgrade at Eagle for another 1-3 years - if I am lucky.

No decent corporate outfit will call me back since I don't have a lot of pic, or time in type - besides I did the 6 days a week on call, and would rather not. Maybe I just want my cake and eat it too, but 60K 10 years from now won't support my family.

So why do we do this for so little? Is it the hope that we will one day return to the good ole days? Or is it purely that we are addictied to flying and will do it for almost no money? This is the hardest descsion - fly or be grounded until I can afford to do it for fun again.

First off I would got the F out of Eagle ASAP. Does not take much to know there is ZERO future there....and poverty wages to boot...lovely. Why have you sat there for 6 years? I would be depressed too.

Why not utilize some of that charter experience you have and give the corp world a go? Yes your first step may be on call charter etc...but decent corp jobs have a much better QOL than most airlines these days (no "on call")...and yes, the pay is usually better also..

How about the fractionals? while they are certainly not par with a good corp gig as far as QOL and pay - they are many times better than any regional out there..

If neither seem reasonable and you are banking on a recovery at the airlines and a return to the way it was --- I would quit tomorrow also, because that simply will never happen.

good luck to ya!

 

[FN FAL]

So why do we do this for so little? Is it the hope that we will one day return to the good ole days? Or is it purely that we are addictied to flying and will do it for almost no money? This is the hardest descsion - fly or be grounded until I can afford to do it for fun again.

What good old days? My buddy's dad is recently retired NWA guy that started during the DC-3 era. I don't know much about how his retirement is doing, but I would think that his genration were the only ones to enjoy those large salaries long enough to make it worthwhile.

 

[Munga]

Well, I am not sure why I am still at Eagle. I guess it is my ever present optimistic side that thinks things will get better. I have been close to upgrade 3 times, only to get pushed back - so I think it is the upgrade I was looking for. You know, PIC time to make myself more competitive, yet keep my seniority and benies. I could care less if I am at an airline - its just pay, schedule, and stability.

I looked at the corporate jobs here in my home town and most of them are also on a part 135 or Fractional lease out. Those pilots are always gone, and the 7 on 7 off thing keeps me away from family a little too much. I have a number of friends who have jumped out - only to be in a similar situation and jumping from job to job every couple of years.

I agree that there are good corporate gigs out there, just haven't been able to land one. Partly, I think, because of the airline stink I carry and partly because I lack jet PIC time. The King Air jobs here are pretty meager - but maybe that is me being picky again.

Thanks for the response. One thing is for sure - get out of EAGLE ASAP.

 

[pilotyip]

munga, if you do a search you will find comments about guys who dropped out of flying only to come back later on. At age 39 after my third job in five years I got out of professional flying. But five years later I went back and have what I consider a good run since that move back into flying 16 years ago.

 

[avbug]

Here we go again. Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine.

Want cheese with that?

How someone can go ten years in their chosen career and not have a clue about the nature of the industry is absolutely beyond me. Increadible. Seems about every two weeks, for years on end, someone posts something like this here. Please talk me out of leaving aviation, I've put in my dues, I'm a ten year veteran (you're just getting to the point where you probably have some concept of how to close the door...and haven't scratched the surface of paying your "dues")...and I'm just discovering that it's a tough row to hoe. Wow.

6 years without an upgrade at eagle? Got caught with the boss's daughter? All right seat? How long do you sit in a position that's paying nothing and going nowhere before you figure it out? Six years?

Do what you have to do, and be happy doing it. If you're not happy, then do something else, already. Have a ball.

Ten years later, you're just getting it???

 

[Munga]

Whine? no. Just getting it? no.

I think you need a nap.

I do know how this industry works, I know there are ups and downs. I was warned of this by mentors who have spent years on furlough, jumping from job to job or have now retired. This down looks like their won't be much of a recovery so I am trying to get happy with a change. Evertime I have started to get a better job, something has gotten in the way. Did 2nd interviewe at Reno - AA bought them and shut the door. Hired at TWA, class cancelled by AA when they bought them too.

I guess I am just looking for opinions from people who got out, only to come back because they were miserable at a 9-5er. I am also looking at opinions about why we do this. Some of us are willing to give up more, some have different ideas about QOL.

This is a big descision, that needs to be looked at from every angle and I am trying to get different angles from other people to see if I have missed any.

Thanks for yours.

 

[FN FAL]

Here we go again. Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine.

Want cheese with that?

...Ten years later, you're just getting it???

We just hired a really neat guy, an EMB age 60 captain from Eagle. He seems to be doing pretty good on IOE, our pilot group really likes the guy. The sad part is, you'd think he'd be done with flying by now.

It's none of my business as to what this guy's reasons are for wanting to fly caravans in a rough weather, scheduled freight environment, but he is here none the less.

So you got that to look forward to, flying all your life at a regional, only to wind up having to make ends meet at age 60 flying freight.

 

[Almerick07]

If you want to keep flying make it work out for you. Dont complain about the pay or schedule, just do a little research and find something that will satisfy your requirements. No reason to get out of flying all together just get a little creative and find a way to make it work.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

really man...

you are whining after sitting at Eagle for the last SIX years?

did it take 6 full years to see that was not going anywhere, no place to make a career out of at least...get off your arse man, you are coming across as lazy.

you say the good corp gigs aren't calling, but your resume says Eagle F/O as your current job. humm....shocker.

Then, 7 on 7 off is too much time away from family?...yeah, those decent corp gigs dont go away for a week ever...GVs stay local...see ya tonight, dear. sheesh..even a Netjet job will keep you away. Want a day job in aviation? try American Eagle.

venting is one thing, but if you are seriously wondering why this is going nowhere and you cant figure it out....

you will have problems in any career, not just aviation!

 

[Munga]

Sigh....Look you guys, I am not whining. You all know we whine too much anyway.

I gave you the situation, and asked for your opinions that is all. I could bitch a lot more - but why. I just wanted to know how you felt about leaving if you were in a similar situation.

You are correct that 6 years as an Eagle FO on my resume looks bad. Just that I didn't think it would take me that long to find a decent jet job. I didn't really want to go back to props, until recently and those(around here) are pretty bad.

Get off my arse? That is what I am doing.

Day job? No, I like overnights, just not 6 in a row.

There are other factors that have kept me at Eagle. Like being 50 numbers away from upgrade twice. Can't just jump ship when things start to look good, but then they have always just fallen apart. I have a few friends who have been displaced out of their CA seats 4 times.(I should have taken the hint, eh? lol) Also, when you have a wife and kids, its tough to go to a place that may not have heath care.

I am now in a situation that allows me to jump.(wife's new job) So now that I can, I am just asking for opinions from people who have jumped and come back or others that have jumped and stayed away. For some people this is a only a job and for others it is a passion. I am trying to weigh that passion against QOL.

I will never truely leave, hopefully I can budget some GA flying and stay current.

Thanks for all your input.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Thank ALPA, for starters.

 

[PacoPollo]

Thank ALPA, for starters.

True Dat!!

 

[askdanny]

Sounds like you caught the flying bug.

Tough dilemma.

(BTW, ALPA is not a union. They say they are, but they are not. If ALPA was a union, we would not undercut each other.)


There is a season in your life for flying, there is a season to be with your family...

If you feel it's time for a change. Follow your heart.

 

[avbug]

I think you need a nap.

I do know how this industry works, I know there are ups and downs. I was warned of this by mentors who have spent years on furlough, jumping from job to job or have now retired. This down looks like their won't be much of a recovery so I am trying to get happy with a change. Evertime I have started to get a better job, something has gotten in the way. Did 2nd interviewe at Reno - AA bought them and shut the door. Hired at TWA, class cancelled by AA when they bought them too.

I guess I am just looking for opinions from people who got out, only to come back because they were miserable at a 9-5er. I am also looking at opinions about why we do this. Some of us are willing to give up more, some have different ideas about QOL.

This is a big descision, that needs to be looked at from every angle and I am trying to get different angles from other people to see if I have missed any

Yes, you asked, and you were answered by someone who had done that. Left, come back, changed jobs, taken second and third jobs, and done it more than a few times. You just didn't like the answer. And yes, I always could use more sleep...but that wouldn't change my reply.

Talk me out of it, cruel world. I'm thinking of leaving the industry. Can anybody give me a good reason not to do it?

No...we can't. Have a ball.

 

[Regul8r]

Alot of people don't want to hack a 9-5er. You can get lucky and have a decent boss to work for or you can get a D****Bag. Chances are you'll get the latter. A desk job will give you things you can't get in a flying career, and vice versa. Flying = Great Job with a shaky lifestyle. Desk Job = Can be boring as H*LL, but at 5pm, you get to do what you want to! Do some research, there are plenty of companies out there that start you off with 2 weeks paid vacation and decent 401k programs. Some companies even have workout facilities. Either way, you know that a lifestyle can be made at either job so just do what your family needs you to do. Just a word of caution though, we did have a guy come to work at my company who used to be a pilot and sadly enough it did kill him (J/K)

 

[Munga]

Yes, you asked, and you were answered by someone who had done that. Left, come back, changed jobs, taken second and third jobs, and done it more than a few times. You just didn't like the answer. And yes, I always could use more sleep...but that wouldn't change my reply.

Talk me out of it, cruel world. I'm thinking of leaving the industry. Can anybody give me a good reason not to do it?

No...we can't. Have a ball.

Well, avbug, you could have said that before - I had no idea you left, only to come back. Instead you gave me a drill seargent response about not whining and telling me to suck it up. This ain't the army, and I am pulling my sack up and making the change.

Thanks and good luck.

 

[RichardRambone]

Im just getting started and reason for it is Im young, single, and only a little debt (just bought a car). I love flying and hope it takes me to interesting places. I do fear someday that Ill be like you guys and freak out about having no stable future and sh!thole pay. I plan on staying away from the airlines for now and we'll just see where aviation takes me. I actually dont plan on being simply a pilot for my career but I dont know what else I can do just yet. Good luck to all.

 

[Ralgha]

So I have been offered a job, 9-5er, no experience, no training - and it is a decent pay raise with weekend and holidays off. Now I get to see my kids grow up, spend time with my wife, and possibly have quicker money.

So you think you'll be done at 5 and have weekends off huh? Not with most well paid 9-5 jobs. You take your work home with you often (doesn't happen in the airlines), and you'll be in on the weekends too. Best part is you'll be on a salary so you don't get paid extra for it.

 

[hindsight2020]

So you think you'll be done at 5 and have weekends off huh? Not with most well paid 9-5 jobs. You take your work home with you often (doesn't happen in the airlines), and you'll be in on the weekends too. Best part is you'll be on a salary so you don't get paid extra for it.

EXACTLY! Biggest underestimation when comparing pay issues with the aviation industry. If I had a quarter for every ex-college buddy who became disgruntled doing the 9-5 I'd be able to afford my own jet.

It still gives me chill how often I hear: "the money? Yeah it's great, but by the time I get out of the office at 5 I'm freggin' tired as hell, so I drive home, sit on the couch, pass out, wake up at 6am rinse and repeat. By the time Friday rolls around I'm dreading Saturday cause I'll most likely be assigned work for the next week and I dread Sunday because I have to look forward to going to work on Monday! I can't even enjoy the sh%t I get to buy with the money" (this particular friend worked in engineering and made 40K start-up salary, left 10 months later...still haven't heard back from the guy)

I'm by no means suggesting 121 work is bliss, I wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole myself, but there's a lot to be said about the impact 9-5 jobs have on your mental sanity.

 

[satpak77]

It still gives me chill how often I hear: "the money? Yeah it's great, but by the time I get out of the office at 5 I'm freggin' tired as hell, so I drive home, sit on the couch, pass out, wake up at 6am rinse and repeat. By the time Friday rolls around I'm dreading Saturday cause I'll most likely be assigned work for the next week and I dread Sunday because I have to look forward to going to work on Monday! I can't even enjoy the sh%t I get to buy with the money" (this particular friend worked in engineering and made 40K start-up salary, left 10 months later...still haven't heard back from the guy)

How about

Wake up at 4 AM, meet the crew van, takeoff at 6 AM, fly IFR approaches the next 8.000 (three zeros for emphasis) flight hours, check into the hotel, repeat for 4 days, on the road. "Get home tired?" The only thing worse is get to the hotel tired, away from home.

You can forget "dreading" Sunday and Saturday, as you will be flying those days. Christmas? Working that day.

"40K start-up salary?" Try $18,000 to pull gear handles and do walk-arounds in the ice, in addition to the above work conditions.

So you think you'll be done at 5 and have weekends off huh? Not with most well paid 9-5 jobs. You take your work home with you often (doesn't happen in the airlines), and you'll be in on the weekends too. Best part is you'll be on a salary so you don't get paid extra for it.

Yeah, I have never met a pilot who brought home Jepp updates, Flightsafety manuals, etc home on the weekend. Or studied for another rating. Or worn your cell or pager on the weekend, being "available".

Or simply had to deal with the stress of the airline lifestyle at home, with mom and the kids, on the weekend, "off" but fielding questions and repairing lost time. Nah, pilots never take work home on the weekend.

Welcome to life as a pilot.

For what? (NOTE: You will get asked this alot by the GF, wife, kids, parents). You will get asked more and more as the years drag on, dragging them thru destroyed holidays, family reunions, the station wagon with 200K on the clock since your are a commuter pilot, the small apartment. For what? That big airline pension?

Those don't exist anymore either.

Nice career this has turned into....

 

[Ralgha]

How about

Wake up at 4 AM, meet the crew van, takeoff at 6 AM, fly IFR approaches the next 8.000 (three zeros for emphasis) flight hours, check into the hotel, repeat for 4 days, on the road. "Get home tired?" The only thing worse is get to the hotel tired, away from home.

You can forget "dreading" Sunday and Saturday, as you will be flying those days. Christmas? Working that day.

"40K start-up salary?" Try $18,000 to pull gear handles and do walk-arounds in the ice, in addition to the above work conditions.

Have you ever worked a "well paid 9-5" job? Unfortunately it's not something you can explain to most pilots. I hung out with three friends from college a couple weeks ago, two work for Intel (one as a sales rep, the other as a design engineer), and one works for Garmin as a software engineer. The one who was a sales rep gets rammed worse than reserve pilots do ("oh hi, back from the 4 day business trip in Vegas (over the weekend)? Yeah, you're going to Boston for a week starting tomorrow, have a nice day"). The other two both brought work home with them most nights, and both were working that weekend too. All three are salaried, none got any extra pay for the extra work. Required rest periods? What are those? When there's a deadline, you work 24/7 for as long as it takes. No 8 hours rest between duty periods. No 24 hours off every 7 days. No maximum of 100 hours per month.

Getting the idea yet? Probably not.

Yeah, I have never met a pilot who brought home Jepp updates, Flightsafety manuals, etc home on the weekend. Or studied for another rating. Or worn your cell or pager on the weekend, being "available".

Well if you count this website, you can chalk me up to the column of never having done that stuff. I do it on duty, with the exception of studying for another rating, which, read this very carefully, is not forced on you (I'm not counting corporate gigs where they might). If you get displaced into different equipment, or otherwised moved without your request, you *gasp* get paid for the training. If you wear the cell or pager on the weekend, then you're either on reserve (not a valid complaint), or you chose to do it. In any case, if you get called in, you get paid for it.

Or simply had to deal with the stress of the airline lifestyle at home, with mom and the kids, on the weekend, "off" but fielding questions and repairing lost time. Nah, pilots never take work home on the weekend.

Ever experienced the stress of a hard-core (high paying) engineering job? Didn't think so. It rips up the families just as easily. Airline pilots do not have a monopoly on the "this job is hell on families" situation, though they like to tell themselves they do.

For what? (NOTE: You will get asked this alot by the GF, wife, kids, parents). You will get asked more and more as the years drag on, dragging them thru destroyed holidays, family reunions, the station wagon with 200K on the clock since your are a commuter pilot, the small apartment. For what? That big airline pension?

Those don't exist anymore either.

Nice career this has turned into....

You want a pension? In this day and age? News flash, airlines are not the only companies dumping pensions.

Much as airline pilots hate to admit it, their job is not that much different from your "well paying 9-5 job". I know that's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's reality.

 

[satpak77]

how are you defining "well-paid"

 

[QueensPilot]

Hey Munga

If you have been with Eagle for 6 years, I would think your upgrade can't be too far away, right? I mean, are there any 10 year F/Os at regionals? So I would imagine you really are going to upgrade soon. So why don't you just stick it out, get the upgrade, and then see how the new income holds you and your family? I mean, you come this far, and if you leave, you could be self sabatoging yourself. Maybe you will double your pay as a Captain? Just my 2 cents.

 

[Munga]

You would think that an upgrade would be soon, but everytime I have said that it gets longer.

Eagle is neither expanding, nor is it getting more airplanes - so the only way we can upgrade is through attrition. Our attrition is mostly FO's, but we do have quite a bit of reitrements. We have a very senior seniority list. The only other way for us to upgrade is based on when AA decides to recall. We have about 400 furloughed AA'ers sitting in RJ CA seats. They are the main reason for all of the multiple displacements. AA won't be recalling anytime soon - so all we have to look for is retirements or AA'ers quiting. Life pretty bad for the flowbacks (AA), so a few of them quit every month. We are also shrinking our training department, so they just displaced those instructors back the line- thus dispalcing more of our line CA's back to FO's.

I have made my descision to leave and fly as a hobby. Hopefully I won't regret it, but at least I will never be able to say I didn't try.

 

[Goose Egg]

I plan on staying away from the airlines for now and we'll just see where aviation takes me.

I may spend a little time at a smaller turboprop operator, but otherwise I have the same strategy.

-Goose

 

[Regul8r]

If you have been with Eagle for 6 years, I would think your upgrade can't be too far away, right? I mean, are there any 10 year F/Os at regionals? So I would imagine you really are going to upgrade soon. So why don't you just stick it out, get the upgrade, and then see how the new income holds you and your family? I mean, you come this far, and if you leave, you could be self sabatoging yourself. Maybe you will double your pay as a Captain? Just my 2 cents.

Big deal about ten years. We all know that back in the day it was not uncommon for pilots to be F/O's for 15+ years only to get furloughed towards the end and get hired with Eastern or Pan Am. ANY job you go to will have it's ups and downs. It just depends on how well you deal with it. As for taking work home with you and working on the weekends, that is a sign of piss poor time management and misallocation of resources on your Boss's behalf. Either rat his a$$ out and hang him out to dry, or search for a new job.

 

[Champ42272]

For what it's worth, I would hang at Eagle.

Flying airplanes is a sickness. We get taught to fly and fall in love with the freedom and the thrill of flight, but very few people actually think ahead far enough to realize what personal sacrifices it takes to make this lifestyle a career.

As far as being an FO for six years here is something you might find interesting. My first flight in the cockpit of a Pan Am B727 (not even as a crew member, but that is another story). The FO who was in the right seat that day (Frankfurt to Tegel, Berlin based crew) had been at Pan Am for 25 years and was still an FO and was going to upgrade on the next bid. It never came and Pan Am went out of business 2 years later.

My point is there is only one person in the world that can make you happy, and that someone is you.

If you really love it, you won't leave. If you do, you'll miss it forever.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Champ 42272

 

[FN FAL]

You would think that an upgrade would be soon, but everytime I have said that it gets longer.

Eagle is neither expanding, nor is it getting more airplanes - so the only way we can upgrade is through attrition. Our attrition is mostly FO's, but we do have quite a bit of reitrements. We have a very senior seniority list...

Why don't you get a part time job as a police officer at your base? You could hang out around the taverns looking for AE parking stickers on cars when on patrol and work that seniority list down.