So Now What For Mesaba?

[BoDEAN]

--removed--

 

[Monster Buck]

what vp? what class? what airline is YOUR friend at?

 

[Towelie]

VP talked to the class my friend is in today. I hear they are going to start parking the AVRO, moving people over to the CRJ. The 10/10 class has been cx, and the people who recently were interviewed are now going to be put in a pool. Oy Vey!

Slow down...

None of this is true, at least not yet. The new VP of flight ops has said he wouldn't be surprised to see the Avro go away. But NO ONE has said it is going to be parked. A lot has to happen before that is fact. Could it happen? Yes. Might it happen? Probably. Has it happened? Nope.

The only classes that have been cancelled are Saab captain upgrade and that is a temporary thing.

Please be careful about what you report as fact before it is verified. Yes, I realize this is FlightInfo but having just interview at XJ you need to watch before you fan the flames.

 

[BoDEAN]

what vp? what class? what airline is YOUR friend at?

VP Mesaba. New Hire Class. Mesaba

Topic of the thread here is "Mesaba"

 

[Towelie]

VP Mesaba. New Hire Class. Mesaba

Topic of the thread here is "Mesaba"

There is still a new hire class scheduled for 10/31.

If there is major news, there will be a press release and not a new VP informing the new hire class.

Remember, possible/likely/could happen does not equal is happening.

When something is official, it will be announced to everyone.

 

[Thedude]

Let me tell ya, if the new VP of Ops is ole Capt Ed...he'll pump ya full of sunshine and then never carry through with any of the promise he made. His major concern (at least with the carrier he just left) was to cut cost to increase his bounses for his retirement.

Side question, when is the current ALPA contract up for renewal?

 

[Peanut Chaser]

Should I get ready to apply as a prospect agent? Because those maroon vests look way too uncomfortable.

 

[CurlyD777]

Here is where the list of aircraft up for debate. (For people that like to read actual documents not created by flightinfo folks)



All it is saying that these 102 aircraft need to be reevaluated because they are not cost effective. They want the panel to asses how to renegotiate the leases (which they have 45 days to do so)



http://www.nwa-restructuring.com/CourtFiledDocuments/firstDayMotions.html



(motion number 17)



On another note on the CRJ's to Mesaba, bankruptcy laws do not allow any company to pay for debts before the date of execution (Thursday) but are allowed to now purchase and pay for ongoing business expenses as usual. This means the payments missed to XJ and 9E aren’t allowed to be settled until the judge accpets the filings, but they can continue to purchase additional aircraft with their $1.5 billion in capital they have right now.

 

[doublepsych]

Bring in a 3rd party and we might as well bend over and provide our own sandpaper.

Just to keep the proper perspective, if you fly an airplane that has a NW logo on the tail, but your paycheck doesn't have a NW logo on it, then YOU are a 3rd party...

Not intended to be a dig, I have done it, have friends that are doing it, but it is the truth.

 

[gnx99]

http://www.nwa-restructuring.com/CourtFiledDocuments/firstDayMotions.html

Excellent Link !!

 

[Monster Buck]

VP Mesaba. New Hire Class. Mesaba

Topic of the thread here is "Mesaba"

I question this. I called the vp personally fiday at 3:00pm. Absolutely wrong. The avro leases are giong to be revisited to better terms and that is it. They are not to be parked or sold.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Management plans to park 13 aircraft quickly. The aircraft
>identified are...

In addition, Management has designated 102 other aircraft for
>potential parking. No specific timeline has been set. Here is the
>breakdown:
>
>ƒÁ 11 B747-200 The remainder of the pax "classic" fleet.
>ƒÁ 7 DC-10 About one-third of the remaining fleet.
>ƒÁ 22 B757-200 A bunch!
>ƒÁ 20 A320
>ƒÁ 6 A319
>ƒÁ 31 Bae-146 Avro's flown by Mesaba, but owned by NWA.

Source: NW ALPA MEC Sept 16th, 2005 Update...

I wouldn't totally rule out the parking of those Avros according to this...

 

[Monster Buck]

Management plans to park 13 aircraft quickly. The aircraft
>identified are...

In addition, Management has designated 102 other aircraft for
>potential parking. No specific timeline has been set. Here is the
>breakdown:
>
>ƒÁ 11 B747-200 The remainder of the pax "classic" fleet.
>ƒÁ 7 DC-10 About one-third of the remaining fleet.
>ƒÁ 22 B757-200 A bunch!
>ƒÁ 20 A320
>ƒÁ 6 A319
>ƒÁ 31 Bae-146 Avro's flown by Mesaba, but owned by NWA.

Source: NW ALPA MEC Sept 16th, 2005 Update...

I wouldn't totally rule out the parking of those Avros according to this...

Totally?? Your right. In this industry I wouln't totally rule out anything. That being said though, all 102 airplanes they are talking about have some form of creditor or lease. Just like United did, it is expected that all these contracts will be revisited. The ones that they can't come to an agreement on, will probably be parked. This is completeley different than WE ARE PARKING ALL THE AVRO'S BECAUSE A VP TOLD A FRIEND OF MINE.
Another thing to question is...What are the chances of NWA getting a better LEASE deal,they don't own them. I'm sure the lessor doesn't have to many other options for someone else to leese them. Ie very much in NWA's best interest while in BK to do so. Also Mesaba VP that iI talked to expected this in the first place. No surprise.
We are hiring and filling three planes a month. Spanjers told me this week that if NWA drops the future CRJ's for Mesaba, we will take over the leases and get our own. He told me this Tuesday night in our recurrent.

 

[ReverseSensing]

I hate pc people. Quess what the post was originally about? Exactly what these guys are commenting on. The original post wasn't about the bs happening at NWA. If you want to talk about that, you can start your own post. Don't jump on the pc band wagon just like all the other liberals out there. These guys are talking about what they want to talk about. Just because it is about y doesn't mean they forgot about x.

Righteo Captain! I guess you told me.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Hold on Monster! I'm not fanning here, just restating what I've read. No judgement. It is very possible for NW to get renegotiated leases. But I'm not going to hold my breath till I read it in writing...

 

[Butters]

Hold on Monster! I'm not fanning here, just restating what I've read. No judgement. It is very possible for NW to get renegotiated leases. But I'm not going to hold my breath till I read it in writing...

Anyone who thinks the Avros aren't going away sometime sooner than later is fooling themselves. The NWA info says they want to look at the leases but may still dump the aircraft.

I also don't know where the 31 number came from because all 35 Avros are on the official list. 501XJ to 536XJ is on the list for "renegotiation." (No 528XJ, though. Thank you Memphis mechanics!)

NWA already said publically today that they want to get smaller planes on some routes and shift more flying to Pinnacle and Mesaba.

 

[CubanSmoker]

I sure hope the don't park that Avro too soon. All of us Avro drivers are going to have to re-learn how to land an airplane and set our thrust manually.

Seriously, the engines are efficient, but you can't get past the point that it has 4 of them and they are thirsty flying low. I rode in the A319 jumpseat from DTW - MSP last month; 1:20 minute flight and the exact fuel burn as the Avro on a typical 1:20 flight.

I'll miss it....

 

[BoDEAN]

What airlines in the US use the Avro besides Mesaba / Pinn?

 

[CWASaab]

What airlines in the US use the Avro besides Mesaba / Pinn?

Mesaba is the only airline operating the Avro RJ in the U.S.

Air Wisconsin operates an older version of the aircraft, the BAe 146 (I believe most of the type at Air Wisconsin are -300s). From what I read here it is not entirely clear if the 146s will make the switch to USAir with the rest of Air Wisconsin.

There have been several other North American carriers that opearted the 146, most recently Jazz (Air Canada feeder).

Shifting gears, and not that I have a horse in the race any longer, but I do think it is likely the Avro will disappear. In my mind there are two 'barriers' keeping the Avro in place: Scope and Aspen.

Scope language in the NWAlpa contract would have made replacing the Avro with another 70-seater impossible. Having any 70-seater is better than having none, and so the Avro, one of the first of the 'big' regional jets, stuck around. With the help of a willing Bankruptcy Judge, NWA well likely seek, and get, scope relief from its pilots (through negotiations, with the threat of an 1113 motion for motivation). Thus opening the door for the Avro to be replaced by a more economical aircraft (i.e. one with only two engines).

Second factor in keeping the Avro is Aspen. The Avro/146 is one of the few commercial jets that can make it in and out, and with the only other jet operator at Aspen being United/Air Wisconsin. Aspen flights are likely priced at a premium, and giving that market to a competitor would be foolish. Not that logic plays a role in airline planning.

If Air Wisconsin and United split completely then NWA may have the only jet service into Aspen (and first class at that).

My hunch is that when the Avro gets replaced it will be with an airplane that can manage Aspen.

 

[Monster Buck]

As the Avro sits right now it is a sore thumb on economy. But... BK does help you do a few different things. They could put all 85 seats in with scope release and compete on the 90 seat routes. Which is cheaper than scrapping the entire program(mx,training,books), for a entirely new ac. Second is to get awesome lease deals since no one else will propably want to start up a whole new operation to fly them. Also any AVRO instructors can correct me if I am wrong but there was talk by the dept. to pull back to .72 giving a much better time/fuel cost structure. Although I don't fly the Avro so I don't know any more about that than hearsay.

Will the AVRO go? Time will tell. I am just offering some alt. endings to this mess. Sixteen months ago they told us that all the Avros were being parked in the desert, now we signed a new ten year deal to fly them just last week, when NWA knew that they were going BK. So I quess we will see. No official word yet, so we will have take it as it comes.

 

[4fanman]

Also any AVRO instructors can correct me if I am wrong but there was talk by the dept. to pull back to .72 giving a much better time/fuel cost structure.

Well, considering that Mmo is .73 ('cept for Sparky) it would have to be more than that. More likely around .67, as if it isn't already a pita for atc. Not to mention having to listen to that flap-lock-out-thingy clacking away at 227 kias.

I left XJ almost 2 years ago and at the time the service agreement had NWA paying the fuel bill for the AVRO. If they managed to negotiate their way out of this due to the bk I would think that would put a sizeable burden on XJ's finances.

I wish the best for my former-fellow XJers.

 

[Crizz]

Well, considering that Mmo is .73 ('cept for Sparky) it would have to be more than that. More likely around .67, as if it isn't already a pita for atc. Not to mention having to listen to that flap-lock-out-thingy clacking away at 227 kias.

I left XJ almost 2 years ago and at the time the service agreement had NWA paying the fuel bill for the AVRO. If they managed to negotiate their way out of this due to the bk I would think that would put a sizeable burden on XJ's finances.

I wish the best for my former-fellow XJers.

Normal cruise is .72 The proposal pulls it back to .66 I have already flown one trip from HPN to MSP flight planned at .66 - Blocked 3.8 hours. We saved some gas though.

Strait from SK, this is NWA forcing a fuel savings program on us. IMO, its a good step. Somethings gotta give - This dang bird burns as much as a baby bus and only carries half the people at way lower speeds. At FL300 going .66 we were burning 600-800 Lbs/hr less than at .72

The avro is comfortable for pilots and passengers, but it really doesnt do anything particularly well. (Except go into Aspen)