SO how does this work... ?

[philo beddoe]

The older gent may log it as cat/class, dual received, and PIC.
He may not act, as PIC, but he may log PIC. If he is receiving dual, he does not need a medical. He may log PIC however. Call any fed and ask them. Logging and acting are two different things.

 

[A Squared]

It would be a real shame if HE damaged HIS airplane, the Feds came after YOUR certificate

Folks, let's think about what we're doing here. Of course the FAA will come after your certificate. WHy wouldn't they? You were the PIC. That's *Pilot In Command*, the person responsible for the safe conduct of the flight. If you knowingly go out flying with a guy with no medical, for the purpose of making the flight legal, you have assumed the responsibility for the sucessful outcome of the flight. Being PIC isn't just some arbitrary and meaningless distinction. It means you are accepting the responsibility for answering for whatevber happens on that flight. If you aren't approching this situation with that mindset, you'd better think twice about doing it. I guarantee you the FAA is viewing it with that mindset,

.......and HIS insurance company came after YOU to pay for the damage.

Excellent point, be very sure that you know what the policy does and doesn't cover. Be aware that being listed on the policy as an "approved" pilot, or being listed on the policy, or meeting a minimum experience level listed on the policy probably does *not* protect you. In only means that the insurance company will reimburse the owner if you are PIC when the airplane crashes. In order to be protected from "subrogation" (the insurance company suing you to recover losses) you have to be named as an "additional insured" on the policy, not merely "approved".

Here are two articles which describe it a little more thouroughly:

http://www.avweb.com/news/insure/188814-1.html

http://www.avweb.com/news/insure/190338-1.html

I would encourage anyone flying other people's airplanes to read this to avoid misumderstandings as to whether you are truly protected under someone's insurance policy.

 

[A Squared]

The only time you'll ever get your certs pulled for logbook falsification is if you don't fly enough for currency purposes (is that your case?) and that's what your falsifying. All that is required to be logged is currency and qualifications. Everything else is your own.

Absolutely not true. I can show you NTSB decisions in which pilots had thier certificates revokes for logging time which was *not* required for currency or qualificatins. I can think of at least 2 cases in which that happened. In fact, the FAA has stated, and the NTSB officially concurred, that *everything* in your logbook must be true, regardelss of whether you are using it or intend to use it for currency or qualification.

 

[A Squared]

Vastly,

Rather than getting snippy at Midlife, you should instead be reading what he says carefully, and making more of an effort to understand why you are wrong. Because you are wrong.

The FAA defines PIC time as "sole manipulator" or "the pilot most responsible for the safe conduct of the flight."

No, not correct, being the pilot most responsible for the safe conduct of the flight does not necessarily entitle you to log PIC time. Being PIC and Logging PIC time are two diffent things, one is not necessarily the other.

My test for PIC time has always been who is the FAA going to hang if there's an incident or accident.

That's the test for who *is* PIC, not a valid test for who gets to *log* PIC. These are two different concepts.

Look, like nosehair, I understand why you are having dfficulty with this. I really do. In a world which made sense, you would be able to log PIC any time you are the PIC. If I were writing the regulations, that would be the way it was.

However, that is not the case. Just like midlife says, the fact that you *are* the PIC, does not allow you to *log* PIC, unless you meet other requirements. This is very solidly grounded in both the words of the regulations and official interpretations of those regulations.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

OK, let's put this thread to rest. The original quandry was what to log as a safety pilot/CFI for a guy with no medical. I think we can all agree he should log PIC and can log dual given if he likes.


I'd be happy to debate the PIC issue with either of you, but perhaps it's better accomplished on another thread. And perhaps, A Squared, you might read my post more carefully, as I never said that acting PIC and logging PIC were the same thing. I only intimated that 61.51 doesn't cover it all, and there are many instances where you can log PIC that aren't covered by that reg.

Now let's all play nice.

 

[Say Again Over]

OK, for the slow learners, the last part from A Squared brought most everything together, now if I as a non CFI, I volunteer to fly with a pilot / owner without a medical, although I am technically the PIC, I will not log this flight as PIC since I am not manipulating the controls. OK, so if I understand this right, no one can log this flight per FAR's .

 

[midlifeflyer]

No, the pilot =without= the medical can log it as PIC - Sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot has a pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class ratings printed on the back. Strangely enough, in the world of the FAA, that is =all= that is needed to write time in the PIC column of a logbook. No medical, no currency, no endorsements, no ability, no skill. Nothing. Just a certificate with category and class.

The key to get from A Squared's post is that these two things:

1. being the pilot in command and having responsibility for the flight

and

2. writing down times in the PIC column of a logbook for the purpose of showing qualification for FAA certificates, ratings, privileges and currency

have different meanings, different purposes, and very, very different rules.

As far as I've been able to tell, looking back to the CAR in the 1940's, the US aviation agencies have always made this separation. The problem is that, under the FAR, they made the unfortunate decision to use the same term, "PIC, for these very different concepts. (The CAR used "solo" for "sole manipulator" which probably caused its own problems)

 

[Say Again Over]

Got it, thanks!

 

[mattpilot]

BACK ON TOPIC:

here's a new twist...

i know the CFI is required to sign all dual given in the students logbook. But what if the student 'refuses' to let you sign his logbook? Or what if the student doesn't have a logbook (yet)? Can you still log Dual given?


Situation A: Old man from first post - he has 1500 hours logged and stopped logging after it was apperent he would never get his medical back ... not even a waiver. So if he doesnt' bring his logbook with him, and you dont' get the opportunity to sign it, can i still log it as Dual given and not get in 'trouble' (i know the odds are against it being discovered, but its just a question....).

Situation B: Student without a logbook. Say its a students first flight (intro flight), and he isn't sure yet if he wants to be a pilot. You, as the CFI, still give him 'instruction', but he has no logbook for you to sign. Further, the student never returns for more lessons. Can i still log that as Dual given and stay out of 'trouble' by not signing his non-existant logbook?


thanks guys...

 

[Vastly Underemp]

My humble understanding is that you may log dual given in your logbook in both scenarios. The only reason you'd need to log it in both of their logbooks would be for their currency or future rating, and if they chose to not get "credit" for your dual time that's their choice. It doesn't effect the legality of your logbook.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I know the CFI is required to sign all dual given in the students logbook. But what if the student 'refuses' to let you sign his logbook? Or what if the student doesn't have a logbook (yet)? Can you still log Dual given?

I always thought that unless the "student's" logbook was endorsed, there really wasn't any "dual" so the CFI could not log CFI-PIC. Then on an afternoon when I was doing some unrelated research in a law library, I decided to browse some really old FAA Legal opinions. FWIW, I came across one (I don't have a copy so can't quote it verbatim) that indicated that the CFI's authority to log PIC when giving instruction was independent of the requirement to endorse instruction given.

BTW, I find that most folks want to log the instruction received. The issue comes up from time to time. I do a bit of instruction with transients - folks on vacation or a business trip that want, for example, to get some experience with high density altitude or go on a mountain flight. They tend to not drag their logbooks around with them.

For the logbook-less, here's how I handle it.

For intro flights, I provide a simple one-page logbook.

For flights other than intros, in other contexts, I've mentioned that I use a 2-part NCR form for each lesson that is signed by me and the pilot, with each of us keeping a copy. The primary purpose is my recordkeepting, but I suggest to the pilot without his logbook that when they get home they make a logbook entry recording the dual and make a reference to the form, which they keep either taped into the logbook or with their other permanent flight records.

 

[rickair7777]

BACK ON TOPIC:

here's a new twist...

i know the CFI is required to sign all dual given in the students logbook. But what if the student 'refuses' to let you sign his logbook? Or what if the student doesn't have a logbook (yet)? Can you still log Dual given?


Situation A: Old man from first post - he has 1500 hours logged and stopped logging after it was apperent he would never get his medical back ... not even a waiver. So if he doesnt' bring his logbook with him, and you dont' get the opportunity to sign it, can i still log it as Dual given and not get in 'trouble' (i know the odds are against it being discovered, but its just a question....).

Situation B: Student without a logbook. Say its a students first flight (intro flight), and he isn't sure yet if he wants to be a pilot. You, as the CFI, still give him 'instruction', but he has no logbook for you to sign. Further, the student never returns for more lessons. Can i still log that as Dual given and stay out of 'trouble' by not signing his non-existant logbook?


thanks guys...

Yup,

Give him a loogbook entry on carbon copy, keep one for yourself...what he does with his is his business.