SO how does this work... ?

[FL420]

Something you really ought to be concerned about, seeing as how you are the only qualified pilot on board, is whether or not you are covered under somebody's insurance policy. It would be a real shame if HE damaged HIS airplane, the Feds came after YOUR certificate and HIS insurance company came after YOU to pay for the damage.

 

[IHateMgmt]

Something you really ought to be concerned about, seeing as how you are the only qualified pilot on board, is whether or not you are covered under somebody's insurance policy. It would be a real shame if HE damaged HIS airplane, the Feds came after YOUR certificate and HIS insurance company came after YOU to pay for the damage.

FL420 has got a point... You can do it and log the time, but I would put one condition on the guy that your name is put on the insurance policy (usually the insurance cost would actually decrease by doing so). However, if you work for a flight school, you may be covered under their policy. I know when I was CFIing at a school, I was still covered when I was flying in the students own airplane.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Quirk heck. You're a CFI flying with anybody giving them dual instruction...you're PIC..

I'm not really following this either. A CFI watching a student fly still logs PIC time. What's the difference here?

Read the post I was responding to - he was talking about =not= treating it as dual.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

He does not have to call it dual instruction given to claim PIC time. The FAA defines PIC time as "sole manipulator" or "the pilot most responsible for the safe conduct of the flight." Typically the former refers to First Officers and those not rated, and the latter refers to Captains and Flight Instructors. When you are the only rated pilot aboard an aircraft in flight, you are PIC. The FAA has even designated as PIC an ATP that was sitting in the back seat during a gear-up landing.

As far as claiming instructor time, anytime you are offering your opinions on matters of flight, you are an instructor. Log it if you like. The only time you may not want to log it as dual given is when you are appplying to airlines that discount instructor time. But from the sounds of things, that's a long way off.

Here's another point to ponder. You are helping someone who obviously loves to fly to be able to leave the surley bonds of the earth behind and once again experience the joys of being airborne. Were it not for you this gentleman may not be able to enjoy his life-sustaining hobby. Your obvious care and compassion for the gentleman's feelings (subtle heading and trim corrections) will bring you a long way in this business....I salute you

Fly safe

 

[midlifeflyer]

He does not have to call it dual instruction given to claim PIC time. The FAA defines PIC time as "sole manipulator" or "the pilot most responsible for the safe conduct of the flight."

Not for logging PIC purposes. 61.51 sets out a series of specific conditions that must me met in order to log various types of flight time for FAA purposes. Being the pilot ultimately responsible for the flight, all by itself, is definitely =not= one of them.

Read it and you'll see. The difference between "logging" PIC and "acting as" PIC has been discussed and clarified repeatedly for a long, long time.

Here it is: the entire known universe of logging PIC time for a pilot (other than a student pilot or an ATP performing ATP duties)

==============================
61.51e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

==============================
Unless acting as CFI, the scenario posted doesn't fit any of these categories for the =real= pilot in command logging PIC time

 

[jaxpilot]

mattpilot. I had to do the same thing today. Older gentleman, has had bypass surgeries and lost his medical. He comes in every 2-3 weeks to fly in our C-150 for exactly 1.0 hours. He works on maneuvers that he wants to do. Today I flew with him and I can say I learned a few things, I think we all can from oldtimers. But he did forget a few things and missed radio calls so it was important for me to be with him. I logged it as PIC, but not dual given.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

OK, I'll bite.......

Read the last 9 words of the reg you posted. Seems to me that is applicable to ANY reg under which the flight is conducted. It's the ultimate escape clause for the FAA, just like "careless and reckless," and how they prosecute when someone isn't even flying. The NTSB has agreed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Vastly,

I don't understand. There are specific regulations in Part 91 and Part 135 that describe operations that specifically require an additional pilot in the cockpit. Two examples are 91.109(b) (safety pilot for simulated instrument flight) and 135.101 (SIC required for carrying passengers for compensation under IFR).

I'm not sure how you take a typical VFR flight to practice maneuvers (assuming nothing under the hood) and find a reg that says that it's illegal to fly it unless you have two certificated, medically current pilots on board (remember, required crewmembers must have current medicals).

The NTSB prosecutes non-flying pilots under a variety of theories based on what the pilot's responsibilities were with respect to the flight. I'd hesitate to tie it into a logging rule.

So I guess it's my turn to bite.

Are you sure you're not confusing "acting" rules with "logging" rules? - it's prety common.

 

[flyer172r]

Actually, you can't log them as PIC.

It's one of the quirks or 61.51 that you can only log time when you are the sole manipulator or are PIC on a flight that requires at least two pilot crewmembers. Flying with a pilot who lost his medical falls into neither category. (Everybody complains about the times the pilot who is obviously not PIC gets to log it under the regs; this is the flip side - there are times the person who is the {IC does not get to log it)
.
I don't have a big problem treating this as dual...and helps him maintain his flying skills.

Ok, I'm confused (and not about the difference between acting as PIC and logging it). If you say you don't have a problem treating this as dual, then wouldn't that make him an authorized instructor which would allow him to log PIC?

61.51(e)(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Flyer

I'm afraid Midlife and I have inadvertently hijacked the thread. As far as the instructor logging PIC time I think we all agree that he can, no question. I think we also all agree that he may, at his discretion, log the time as dual given. My original point was he may or may not want to log the dual given time depending on where he is in his career. Some airlines discount dual given time when evaluating the "quality" of your total time during logbook review; it's the old 1000 hours or 1 hour 1000 times. Just for the record I completely disagree with the practice and firmly believe that instructing is an incredibly valuable experience; I think I learned more than my students did when I was teaching.

Now, on to the hijacking.