SO how does this work... ?

[jaxpilot]

mattpilot. I had to do the same thing today. Older gentleman, has had bypass surgeries and lost his medical. He comes in every 2-3 weeks to fly in our C-150 for exactly 1.0 hours. He works on maneuvers that he wants to do. Today I flew with him and I can say I learned a few things, I think we all can from oldtimers. But he did forget a few things and missed radio calls so it was important for me to be with him. I logged it as PIC, but not dual given.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

OK, I'll bite.......

Read the last 9 words of the reg you posted. Seems to me that is applicable to ANY reg under which the flight is conducted. It's the ultimate escape clause for the FAA, just like "careless and reckless," and how they prosecute when someone isn't even flying. The NTSB has agreed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Vastly,

I don't understand. There are specific regulations in Part 91 and Part 135 that describe operations that specifically require an additional pilot in the cockpit. Two examples are 91.109(b) (safety pilot for simulated instrument flight) and 135.101 (SIC required for carrying passengers for compensation under IFR).

I'm not sure how you take a typical VFR flight to practice maneuvers (assuming nothing under the hood) and find a reg that says that it's illegal to fly it unless you have two certificated, medically current pilots on board (remember, required crewmembers must have current medicals).

The NTSB prosecutes non-flying pilots under a variety of theories based on what the pilot's responsibilities were with respect to the flight. I'd hesitate to tie it into a logging rule.

So I guess it's my turn to bite.

Are you sure you're not confusing "acting" rules with "logging" rules? - it's prety common.

 

[flyer172r]

Actually, you can't log them as PIC.

It's one of the quirks or 61.51 that you can only log time when you are the sole manipulator or are PIC on a flight that requires at least two pilot crewmembers. Flying with a pilot who lost his medical falls into neither category. (Everybody complains about the times the pilot who is obviously not PIC gets to log it under the regs; this is the flip side - there are times the person who is the {IC does not get to log it)
.
I don't have a big problem treating this as dual...and helps him maintain his flying skills.

Ok, I'm confused (and not about the difference between acting as PIC and logging it). If you say you don't have a problem treating this as dual, then wouldn't that make him an authorized instructor which would allow him to log PIC?

61.51(e)(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Flyer

I'm afraid Midlife and I have inadvertently hijacked the thread. As far as the instructor logging PIC time I think we all agree that he can, no question. I think we also all agree that he may, at his discretion, log the time as dual given. My original point was he may or may not want to log the dual given time depending on where he is in his career. Some airlines discount dual given time when evaluating the "quality" of your total time during logbook review; it's the old 1000 hours or 1 hour 1000 times. Just for the record I completely disagree with the practice and firmly believe that instructing is an incredibly valuable experience; I think I learned more than my students did when I was teaching.

Now, on to the hijacking.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Midlife.....

An FAA Designated Examiner is conducting a practical test for a rating which the student completes successfully. Who is the PIC, and who logs the time?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Ok, I'm confused (and not about the difference between acting as PIC and logging it). If you say you don't have a problem treating this as dual, then wouldn't that make him an authorized instructor which would allow him to log PIC?

If you look back, you'll see that I was answering two different questions. It was suggested by someone that the CFI should simply go up with someone, =not= treat it as dual, and log it as PIC anyway.

I was only saying:

1. =If= the pilot is =not= acting as CFI, there is nothing in 61.51 that permitted him to log the time a PIC.

2. I saw no reason why the pilot should not treat it as instruction.

Quite clearly, if it is dual, it's PIC for the instructor.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Midlife.....

An FAA Designated Examiner is conducting a practical test for a rating which the student completes successfully. Who is the PIC, and who logs the time?

Student is PIC unless the Examiner specifically agrees to act in that capacity. A reg specifically says to do it.

Student also logs the time as PIC. There are plenty of explanations why, but bottom line is that this is the one time that convention trumps 61.51. There really isn't any 61.51 category that covers the student pilot =logging= PIC during the checkride.

Sounds like a lot more hijacking that we started with.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Prior to hijacking........CFI logs PIC time, as older gent doesn't have a medical, pilot's discretion for logging dual, agreed?

Post hijacking.......BOTH examiner and pilot may log PIC time (successful exam). 61.51 doesn't cover everything. My test for PIC time has always been who is the FAA going to hang if there's an incident or accident.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Prior to hijacking.... CFI logs PIC time regardless of older gent's medical and regardless of who is actually PIC. Older gent logs dual because that's what its is (and the regs say that a CFI must endorse all training time) and PIC because he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft he's rated for.

Post hijacking... Your test is fine for you. I'd rather use the FAA's and avoid the potential for certificate revocation for logbook falsification.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Prior....no pilot may exercise the priveleges of his Airman Certificate unless accompanied by a VALID medical certificate, therefore, the elder gent may NOT log the time as anything but dual received

Post..... The only time you'll ever get your certs pulled for logbook falsification is if you don't fly enough for currency purposes (is that your case?) and that's what your falsifying. All that is required to be logged is currency and qualifications. Everything else is your own.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Prior....no pilot may exercise the priveleges of his Airman Certificate unless accompanied by a VALID medical certificate, therefore, the elder gent may NOT log the time as anything but dual received

Writing things in a on a piece of paper while sitting at a desk with a beer in hand is not one of the privileges of any pilot certificate I know of. Acting as a pilot or required crewmember is.

You seem have a basic and common misunderstanding of the long-standing and multiple-times interpreted rules of FAA logging under 61.51, which come down to that the rules of exercising privileges of a pilot certificate and the rules of logging are quite different and sometimes exactly opposite each other.

Just as an educational exercise, you can start with the logging FAQ on my web site. http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2#3 Not that it's anything special or authoritative - it's just the easiest way for me to point out what the rules are. All of the "Rules" scenarios have pretty solid sources in FAA Legal opinions, and with a little searching you can find them discussed ad nauseum online.

I've given up arguing about them a long time ago. The argument never gets much beyond "I don't (like)(believe)(accept) it" on the one hand and "Well, that's what the rules and the FAA say" on the other.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Have a nice day

 

[nosehair]

Have a nice day

Vastly, I have been in this game over 40 years, and, like you, (I think) I was schooled in the concept that logging PIC meant you were actually the PIC and had to have all the paperwork to back that up when logging PIC.
Even when I read 61.51, my mind sub-conciously "assumed" this in the background, and 61.51 was laying out some specific rules about that acting PIC. I still continued to resist the idea that you could log PIC when you were not. It does not make sense, and I am against it as a practice.

However, I have come to read 61.51 in the pure black-and-white that it is, and no where does it say you have to BE the PIC.

If you are sole manipulator of the controls (and they even accept turning on the auto pilot as "sole manipulator"), and the rating is on your certificate, as in ASEL or AMEL or what ever - never mind the required endoresements, medicals currency, etc. because you are not BEING the PIC - he's sitting in the airplane next to you - you can log this "sole manipulator" time as PIC. Says it right there in 61.51. Doesn't say you have to be acting as PIC - just that you are sole manipulator.
And the guy who is the PIC cannot log it unless he is an instructor and is giving dual. Or he is required to be there as in FAR required safety pilot or co-pilot.

Stupid, isn't it. I agree with your concept. I think it has destroyed the meaning of logging PIC. These days, almost all the logged PIC is as an FO, a safety pilot, dual instruction (as a student), etc. Now the interviewers have to dissect the applicant's PIC time.

 

[MauleSkinner]

by the way...if you're logging it as "Dual Given", don't forget about

61.189, Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

Fly safe!

David