SO how does this work... ?

[mattpilot]

Recently i've been asked to fly with an older guy who has a Private pilot certificate, but lost his medical. He also owns his own airplane.

He likes to fly, so he asks CFI's to go with him (since he can't act as PIC, with no medical). Basically how it works is, the CFI is the 'baby-sitter' and watches the old guy fly.

So.... how could one go about logging this? Can it be logged as dual given? He obviously isn't training for a license or rating, but then again, giving flight reviews fits the same description, and it can be logged as dual given.

Also, it is my understanding that if the "student" owns a plane, it does not need to comply with the 100 hour inspection if instruction is taking place in it. Is that correct?



thanks

 

[FlyingFisherman]

Dual given, PIC, Cat/Class and Conditions all go in your logbook.

 

[User546]

I've been in your exact same situation (still am I guess). An older gentleman about 80 yrs old, owns a Mooney, and lost his medical last August. He still likes to fly his airplane, but since he's not legal to now (with no medical) he always takes me along with him.

The way I see it, is you are PIC plain and simple. He couldn't even be PIC if he wanted to. You're not babysitting, your not giving dual instruction, your simply flying an airplane with a friend. Besides, your the only legally-qualified pilot on board. The fact that he flies the airplane doesn't change any of that.

I wouldn't log it as dual given for the reasons stated. Your not training him to a further rating, and unless your working him up for a BFR (which your not) then I wouldn't log it as dual either. He can't legally pilot the airplane, so to me it'd seem a bit suspicious giving a bunch of dual given to someone who isn't qualified. Thats like grabbing someone from work and taking him up and calling it dual given - it's not.

As for you, you log those flights PIC all the way. Think of it this way, if your flying along (or him) and something goes wrong and, for instance, he gears up the airplane, who do you think the FAA's going to be coming after?

 

[mattpilot]

I know that i'll be the only PIC on board - and will be logging it that way.

Even though he has some 1500 hours as a private pilot, he isn't the 'safest' guy flying around, and not only because of his medical condition.

I constantly have to adjust altitude (By trim wheel, so he doesn't notice it as much ) and adjusting our ground track by use of rudder. I'm sneaky . I also keep reminding him to push buttons, e.g. turn off fuel pump after take off.

Anyhow.... as I have just recently obtained my CFI cert with no real CFI job, i was wondering if i can use this setup to build dual given time.

People who have previously flown with him have logged it as dual given, although i'm not so sure because, as i stated in the first post, i'm not giving him training to obtain a certificate or rating.

So i was just wondering if there is some FAA definition about dual given. I couldn't find any in part 61.

 

[midlifeflyer]

As for you, you log those flights PIC all the way. Think of it this way, if your flying along (or him) and something goes wrong and, for instance, he gears up the airplane, who do you think the FAA's going to be coming after?

Actually, you can't log them as PIC.

It's one of the quirks or 61.51 that you can only log time when you are the sole manipulator or are PIC on a flight that requires at least two pilot crewmembers. Flying with a pilot who lost his medical falls into neither category. (Everybody complains about the times the pilot who is obviously not PIC gets to log it under the regs; this is the flip side - there are times the person who is the {IC does not get to log it)
.
I don't have a big problem treating this as dual.

Basically how it works is, the CFI is the 'baby-sitter' and watches the old guy fly.

..and helps him maintain his flying skills.

 

[FlyingFisherman]

Actually, you can't log them as PIC.

It's one of the quirks or 61.51 that you can only log time when you are the sole manipulator or are PIC on a flight that requires at least two pilot crewmembers. Flying with a pilot who lost his medical falls into neither category. (Everybody complains about the times the pilot who is obviously not PIC gets to log it under the regs; this is the flip side - there are times the person who is the {IC does not get to log it)
.
I don't have a big problem treating this as dual...and helps him maintain his flying skills.

Quirk heck. You're a CFI flying with anybody giving them dual instruction...you're PIC.

People who have previously flown with him have logged it as dual given, although i'm not so sure because, as i stated in the first post, i'm not giving him training to obtain a certificate or rating.

Doesn't matter. Dual Given, PIC, Cat/Class and Conditions all go in your logbook.

 

[mattpilot]

okay.... thanks guys.

just one more unresolved question....

Also, it is my understanding that if the "student" owns a plane, it does not need to comply with the 100 hour inspection if instruction is taking place in it. Is that correct?

 

[FlyingFisherman]

Correct. It's his airplane and is subject only to annual inspections provided he does not lease the airplane back to a flight school.

 

[mattpilot]

thanks

 

[unreal]

Actually, you can't log them as PIC.

It's one of the quirks or 61.51 that you can only log time when you are the sole manipulator or are PIC on a flight that requires at least two pilot crewmembers. Flying with a pilot who lost his medical falls into neither category. (Everybody complains about the times the pilot who is obviously not PIC gets to log it under the regs; this is the flip side - there are times the person who is the {IC does not get to log it)

I'm not really following this either. A CFI watching a student fly still logs PIC time. What's the difference here?

 

[FL420]

Something you really ought to be concerned about, seeing as how you are the only qualified pilot on board, is whether or not you are covered under somebody's insurance policy. It would be a real shame if HE damaged HIS airplane, the Feds came after YOUR certificate and HIS insurance company came after YOU to pay for the damage.

 

[IHateMgmt]

Something you really ought to be concerned about, seeing as how you are the only qualified pilot on board, is whether or not you are covered under somebody's insurance policy. It would be a real shame if HE damaged HIS airplane, the Feds came after YOUR certificate and HIS insurance company came after YOU to pay for the damage.

FL420 has got a point... You can do it and log the time, but I would put one condition on the guy that your name is put on the insurance policy (usually the insurance cost would actually decrease by doing so). However, if you work for a flight school, you may be covered under their policy. I know when I was CFIing at a school, I was still covered when I was flying in the students own airplane.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Quirk heck. You're a CFI flying with anybody giving them dual instruction...you're PIC..

I'm not really following this either. A CFI watching a student fly still logs PIC time. What's the difference here?

Read the post I was responding to - he was talking about =not= treating it as dual.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

He does not have to call it dual instruction given to claim PIC time. The FAA defines PIC time as "sole manipulator" or "the pilot most responsible for the safe conduct of the flight." Typically the former refers to First Officers and those not rated, and the latter refers to Captains and Flight Instructors. When you are the only rated pilot aboard an aircraft in flight, you are PIC. The FAA has even designated as PIC an ATP that was sitting in the back seat during a gear-up landing.

As far as claiming instructor time, anytime you are offering your opinions on matters of flight, you are an instructor. Log it if you like. The only time you may not want to log it as dual given is when you are appplying to airlines that discount instructor time. But from the sounds of things, that's a long way off.

Here's another point to ponder. You are helping someone who obviously loves to fly to be able to leave the surley bonds of the earth behind and once again experience the joys of being airborne. Were it not for you this gentleman may not be able to enjoy his life-sustaining hobby. Your obvious care and compassion for the gentleman's feelings (subtle heading and trim corrections) will bring you a long way in this business....I salute you

Fly safe

 

[midlifeflyer]

He does not have to call it dual instruction given to claim PIC time. The FAA defines PIC time as "sole manipulator" or "the pilot most responsible for the safe conduct of the flight."

Not for logging PIC purposes. 61.51 sets out a series of specific conditions that must me met in order to log various types of flight time for FAA purposes. Being the pilot ultimately responsible for the flight, all by itself, is definitely =not= one of them.

Read it and you'll see. The difference between "logging" PIC and "acting as" PIC has been discussed and clarified repeatedly for a long, long time.

Here it is: the entire known universe of logging PIC time for a pilot (other than a student pilot or an ATP performing ATP duties)

==============================
61.51e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person--

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

==============================
Unless acting as CFI, the scenario posted doesn't fit any of these categories for the =real= pilot in command logging PIC time

 

[jaxpilot]

mattpilot. I had to do the same thing today. Older gentleman, has had bypass surgeries and lost his medical. He comes in every 2-3 weeks to fly in our C-150 for exactly 1.0 hours. He works on maneuvers that he wants to do. Today I flew with him and I can say I learned a few things, I think we all can from oldtimers. But he did forget a few things and missed radio calls so it was important for me to be with him. I logged it as PIC, but not dual given.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

OK, I'll bite.......

Read the last 9 words of the reg you posted. Seems to me that is applicable to ANY reg under which the flight is conducted. It's the ultimate escape clause for the FAA, just like "careless and reckless," and how they prosecute when someone isn't even flying. The NTSB has agreed.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Vastly,

I don't understand. There are specific regulations in Part 91 and Part 135 that describe operations that specifically require an additional pilot in the cockpit. Two examples are 91.109(b) (safety pilot for simulated instrument flight) and 135.101 (SIC required for carrying passengers for compensation under IFR).

I'm not sure how you take a typical VFR flight to practice maneuvers (assuming nothing under the hood) and find a reg that says that it's illegal to fly it unless you have two certificated, medically current pilots on board (remember, required crewmembers must have current medicals).

The NTSB prosecutes non-flying pilots under a variety of theories based on what the pilot's responsibilities were with respect to the flight. I'd hesitate to tie it into a logging rule.

So I guess it's my turn to bite.

Are you sure you're not confusing "acting" rules with "logging" rules? - it's prety common.

 

[flyer172r]

Actually, you can't log them as PIC.

It's one of the quirks or 61.51 that you can only log time when you are the sole manipulator or are PIC on a flight that requires at least two pilot crewmembers. Flying with a pilot who lost his medical falls into neither category. (Everybody complains about the times the pilot who is obviously not PIC gets to log it under the regs; this is the flip side - there are times the person who is the {IC does not get to log it)
.
I don't have a big problem treating this as dual...and helps him maintain his flying skills.

Ok, I'm confused (and not about the difference between acting as PIC and logging it). If you say you don't have a problem treating this as dual, then wouldn't that make him an authorized instructor which would allow him to log PIC?

61.51(e)(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Flyer

I'm afraid Midlife and I have inadvertently hijacked the thread. As far as the instructor logging PIC time I think we all agree that he can, no question. I think we also all agree that he may, at his discretion, log the time as dual given. My original point was he may or may not want to log the dual given time depending on where he is in his career. Some airlines discount dual given time when evaluating the "quality" of your total time during logbook review; it's the old 1000 hours or 1 hour 1000 times. Just for the record I completely disagree with the practice and firmly believe that instructing is an incredibly valuable experience; I think I learned more than my students did when I was teaching.

Now, on to the hijacking.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Midlife.....

An FAA Designated Examiner is conducting a practical test for a rating which the student completes successfully. Who is the PIC, and who logs the time?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Ok, I'm confused (and not about the difference between acting as PIC and logging it). If you say you don't have a problem treating this as dual, then wouldn't that make him an authorized instructor which would allow him to log PIC?

If you look back, you'll see that I was answering two different questions. It was suggested by someone that the CFI should simply go up with someone, =not= treat it as dual, and log it as PIC anyway.

I was only saying:

1. =If= the pilot is =not= acting as CFI, there is nothing in 61.51 that permitted him to log the time a PIC.

2. I saw no reason why the pilot should not treat it as instruction.

Quite clearly, if it is dual, it's PIC for the instructor.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Midlife.....

An FAA Designated Examiner is conducting a practical test for a rating which the student completes successfully. Who is the PIC, and who logs the time?

Student is PIC unless the Examiner specifically agrees to act in that capacity. A reg specifically says to do it.

Student also logs the time as PIC. There are plenty of explanations why, but bottom line is that this is the one time that convention trumps 61.51. There really isn't any 61.51 category that covers the student pilot =logging= PIC during the checkride.

Sounds like a lot more hijacking that we started with.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Prior to hijacking........CFI logs PIC time, as older gent doesn't have a medical, pilot's discretion for logging dual, agreed?

Post hijacking.......BOTH examiner and pilot may log PIC time (successful exam). 61.51 doesn't cover everything. My test for PIC time has always been who is the FAA going to hang if there's an incident or accident.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Prior to hijacking.... CFI logs PIC time regardless of older gent's medical and regardless of who is actually PIC. Older gent logs dual because that's what its is (and the regs say that a CFI must endorse all training time) and PIC because he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft he's rated for.

Post hijacking... Your test is fine for you. I'd rather use the FAA's and avoid the potential for certificate revocation for logbook falsification.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Prior....no pilot may exercise the priveleges of his Airman Certificate unless accompanied by a VALID medical certificate, therefore, the elder gent may NOT log the time as anything but dual received

Post..... The only time you'll ever get your certs pulled for logbook falsification is if you don't fly enough for currency purposes (is that your case?) and that's what your falsifying. All that is required to be logged is currency and qualifications. Everything else is your own.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Prior....no pilot may exercise the priveleges of his Airman Certificate unless accompanied by a VALID medical certificate, therefore, the elder gent may NOT log the time as anything but dual received

Writing things in a on a piece of paper while sitting at a desk with a beer in hand is not one of the privileges of any pilot certificate I know of. Acting as a pilot or required crewmember is.

You seem have a basic and common misunderstanding of the long-standing and multiple-times interpreted rules of FAA logging under 61.51, which come down to that the rules of exercising privileges of a pilot certificate and the rules of logging are quite different and sometimes exactly opposite each other.

Just as an educational exercise, you can start with the logging FAQ on my web site. http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2#3 Not that it's anything special or authoritative - it's just the easiest way for me to point out what the rules are. All of the "Rules" scenarios have pretty solid sources in FAA Legal opinions, and with a little searching you can find them discussed ad nauseum online.

I've given up arguing about them a long time ago. The argument never gets much beyond "I don't (like)(believe)(accept) it" on the one hand and "Well, that's what the rules and the FAA say" on the other.

 

[Vastly Underemp]

Have a nice day

 

[nosehair]

Have a nice day

Vastly, I have been in this game over 40 years, and, like you, (I think) I was schooled in the concept that logging PIC meant you were actually the PIC and had to have all the paperwork to back that up when logging PIC.
Even when I read 61.51, my mind sub-conciously "assumed" this in the background, and 61.51 was laying out some specific rules about that acting PIC. I still continued to resist the idea that you could log PIC when you were not. It does not make sense, and I am against it as a practice.

However, I have come to read 61.51 in the pure black-and-white that it is, and no where does it say you have to BE the PIC.

If you are sole manipulator of the controls (and they even accept turning on the auto pilot as "sole manipulator"), and the rating is on your certificate, as in ASEL or AMEL or what ever - never mind the required endoresements, medicals currency, etc. because you are not BEING the PIC - he's sitting in the airplane next to you - you can log this "sole manipulator" time as PIC. Says it right there in 61.51. Doesn't say you have to be acting as PIC - just that you are sole manipulator.
And the guy who is the PIC cannot log it unless he is an instructor and is giving dual. Or he is required to be there as in FAR required safety pilot or co-pilot.

Stupid, isn't it. I agree with your concept. I think it has destroyed the meaning of logging PIC. These days, almost all the logged PIC is as an FO, a safety pilot, dual instruction (as a student), etc. Now the interviewers have to dissect the applicant's PIC time.

 

[MauleSkinner]

by the way...if you're logging it as "Dual Given", don't forget about

61.189, Flight instructor records.
(a) A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.

Fly safe!

David