SO how does this work... ?

[midlifeflyer]

I know the CFI is required to sign all dual given in the students logbook. But what if the student 'refuses' to let you sign his logbook? Or what if the student doesn't have a logbook (yet)? Can you still log Dual given?

I always thought that unless the "student's" logbook was endorsed, there really wasn't any "dual" so the CFI could not log CFI-PIC. Then on an afternoon when I was doing some unrelated research in a law library, I decided to browse some really old FAA Legal opinions. FWIW, I came across one (I don't have a copy so can't quote it verbatim) that indicated that the CFI's authority to log PIC when giving instruction was independent of the requirement to endorse instruction given.

BTW, I find that most folks want to log the instruction received. The issue comes up from time to time. I do a bit of instruction with transients - folks on vacation or a business trip that want, for example, to get some experience with high density altitude or go on a mountain flight. They tend to not drag their logbooks around with them.

For the logbook-less, here's how I handle it.

For intro flights, I provide a simple one-page logbook.

For flights other than intros, in other contexts, I've mentioned that I use a 2-part NCR form for each lesson that is signed by me and the pilot, with each of us keeping a copy. The primary purpose is my recordkeepting, but I suggest to the pilot without his logbook that when they get home they make a logbook entry recording the dual and make a reference to the form, which they keep either taped into the logbook or with their other permanent flight records.

 

[rickair7777]

BACK ON TOPIC:

here's a new twist...

i know the CFI is required to sign all dual given in the students logbook. But what if the student 'refuses' to let you sign his logbook? Or what if the student doesn't have a logbook (yet)? Can you still log Dual given?


Situation A: Old man from first post - he has 1500 hours logged and stopped logging after it was apperent he would never get his medical back ... not even a waiver. So if he doesnt' bring his logbook with him, and you dont' get the opportunity to sign it, can i still log it as Dual given and not get in 'trouble' (i know the odds are against it being discovered, but its just a question....).

Situation B: Student without a logbook. Say its a students first flight (intro flight), and he isn't sure yet if he wants to be a pilot. You, as the CFI, still give him 'instruction', but he has no logbook for you to sign. Further, the student never returns for more lessons. Can i still log that as Dual given and stay out of 'trouble' by not signing his non-existant logbook?


thanks guys...

Yup,

Give him a loogbook entry on carbon copy, keep one for yourself...what he does with his is his business.