SLC Controllers and everyone else in the system

[cfi_greg]

Could someone please explain, why the SLC controllers both approach and center but mainly approach seem to be one of the most retarded bunch out there. Come on SLC isn't even that busy. Someone shed some light please.

 

[cjdriver]

Can you give an example? I have several of my own, like heading changes about every 5 seconds on downwind.

 

[Goose Egg]

My personal favorite is the "slow to 170" (in the Brasilia) to one of the gates, then "Max forward speed" the rest of the way in.

And then there's the heading changes every five seconds... almost faster than I can read them back sometimes. Seriously, what's so wrong with the heading on the arrival?

-Goose

 

[cfi_greg]

Exactly there's speeds and headings on the those new fancy arrivals, seems to work for other airports, slc just likes to be difficult.

 

[N1VIBS]

Could someone please explain, why the SLC controllers both approach and center but mainly approach seem to be one of the most retarded bunch out there. Come on SLC isn't even that busy. Someone shed some light please.

Have you ever thought that maybe they don't just seem retarted, but actually are?

 

[gabbyzoel]

Have you ever thought of calling the facility and asking why things happen the way they do? You might find there is a procedure they have to follow that seems weird to us. Or you might find that they are retarded but in either case you will have a more concrete answer than any provided here including mine.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

can any of you total idiots do better?? no you can't. they are some of the best and i don't feel like writing two pages of explaining the workings of the airspace.... i built it.

 

[Goose Egg]

can any of you total idiots do better?? no you can't. they are some of the best and i don't feel like writing two pages of explaining the workings of the airspace.... i built it.

In all fairness, there are some very good controllers in SLC, and that includes tower, approach, and center.

In all fairness, however, there are also some controllers that really do suck. BOS approach/center, Norcal/Socal, LAX/SFO tower generally do a lot better.

And if you are the one that built an airspace that requires three to four heading changes of right/left five degrees in 3 minutes, maybe you should have thought that one through a little more. I fly to DYANN and turn heading 155. It ain't rocket science.

-Goose

 

[N1VIBS]

You built it? Yea, many years ago when I was a controller, I met many guys like you in planning and procedures. My old supervisor use to say "we're (controllers) are down here to help those people (pilots) up there, not the other way around." Seems like some of you planning/procedures people have never heard that.

 

[dickburns]

BOS center controllers are some of the best. Cream of the crop in my opinion.

 

[Goose Egg]

BOS center controllers are some of the best. Cream of the crop in my opinion.

I completely agree--those guys are some darn good controllers.

NY approach, on the other hand...

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

In all fairness, there are some very good controllers in SLC, and that includes tower, approach, and center.

In all fairness, however, there are also some controllers that really do suck. BOS approach/center, Norcal/Socal, LAX/SFO tower generally do a lot better.

And if you are the one that built an airspace that requires three to four heading changes of right/left five degrees in 3 minutes, maybe you should have thought that one through a little more. I fly to DYANN and turn heading 155. It ain't rocket science.

-Goose

Goose,
The reason for those heading changes is as you go further on the downwind, your right wing is basically fliying in the MVA and as you go south it moves east and curves toward the east. There is no straight line for the contoller to just follow. Also the upper wind regularly comes over the mountains and they have to work with that also. In addition as you are on the left downwind to 34L, straight in traffic from over FFU is on the 34R loc. There is VERY little room for you to make the left turn from downwind to base then base to final. Anyone who is not turning at 30 deg of bank is going to have serious trouble. Most of the time it was American's 88's. 15 deg and no more. Yes, I asked them. My soulution, along with most all conrollers was to climb them to 110 and send them to OGD to either hold or end of the line.
There is NO room to do anything with the MVA's so the heading changes are the only way to keep you out of the mountains and the controllers from having a deal, I know, I had one right there over U42.

Just like every job there are good and bad. I saw several people there that barely checked out. I agree with that completely, however painting all of the controllers at S56, (tracon) is assnine. Just like painting all of XYZ's pilots are idiots. I am sure you have flown with some that you wonder how they even got a private, let alone qualify for comm or ATP.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

You built it? Yea, many years ago when I was a controller, I met many guys like you in planning and procedures. My old supervisor use to say "we're (controllers) are down here to help those people (pilots) up there, not the other way around." Seems like some of you planning/procedures people have never heard that.

I was NEVER in plans and procedures. I was a journeyman controller my entire career. I, along with SD was asked to rebuild the TRACON airspace along with two great guys from ZLC. NONE were from P/P. We spent almost a year with the project.

SAV, PBI and S56.
What facility were you at?

 

[Stryker]

My favorite is a flight that takes 1 hour 36 minutes and a taxi that takes 27 minutes. No joke and this is not just one occurrence, we are 3 for 3 of landing 34 right and taxiing all the way to the east side. This followed by a 22 minute delay for departure with both engines running. Total waist of fuel for just one of the days was about 1500 lbs, or about $1600.00. Very sad when they have a nice general aviation runway that dumps you right off into Million air

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

My favorite is a flight that takes 1 hour 36 minutes and a taxi that takes 27 minutes. No joke and this is not just one occurrence, we are 3 for 3 of landing 34 right and taxiing all the way to the east side. This followed by a 22 minute delay for departure with both engines running. Total waist of fuel for just one of the days was about 1500 lbs, or about $1600.00. Very sad when they have a nice general aviation runway that dumps you right off into Million air

Did you request 35? Agreed, taxi time seems excessive for that flight, though 5h 38m taxi for a 52m scheduled block probably beats that.
The Tower calls the rwy in use and tells Tracon to take all the arrivals to whichever rwy they decide.
Depends on the bank, arrivals or departures.

 

[Stryker]

Did you request 35? Agreed, taxi time seems excessive for that flight, though 5h 38m taxi for a 52m scheduled block probably beats that.
The Tower calls the rwy in use and tells Tracon to take all the arrivals to whichever rwy they decide.
Depends on the bank, arrivals or departures.

I requested 35 twice, dont get me wrong I know there will be delays. Just dont have me start my engines until you are ready to launch me. I get 10 to 15 minute start delays running into places like vegas all the time. The difference is they have me call for start and I am not wasting all that fuel

 

[SSDD]

A few years ago I was a liason with ATC. We used to hold regular meetings with the tower, tracon, and center, and sometimes the military. It was basically a territorial fight. Center would impose certain restrictions on approach, and approach would fight back with some restrictions of their own, and vice versa. That's why we get assigned 250kts by center, and as soon as we check in with approach they ask for maximun forward speed. No one between us and the runway.

That territorial fight between the tower and tracon was one of the reasons they were so slow to start using the east runway. We could be backed up on H, and RWY 35 would go unused.

I understand that the terrain imposes some limitations that flat landers don't have to deal with, but there is a lot more to it than just the mountains.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

The problem with the outer fix speeds is very simple, whoever is working flow control that day or shift, looks at the ASD and issues speeds to flow control in Washington. Pretty stupid since the center is just across the airport. But, that is how the FAA operates. Unfortunately the controllers manning the positions have no say in the speeds. So when you are switched to TRACON is trying to flow 4 feeds into one downwind. I was usually in trouble daily due to my refusal to accept speeds when they were not needed. I would just call the sector and tell the controller to drop the speeds if there was a tie, just stack them up. Always pissed off the 'weak' flow controllers. The good ones never put speeds on my side, ever.
Still, there are good ones and some not so good.
And yes, the tower was the ones directing the show and it really ticked us off in the TRACON....

 

[Goose Egg]

Goose,
The reason for those heading changes is as you go further on the downwind, your right wing is basically fliying in the MVA and as you go south it moves east and curves toward the east. There is no straight line for the contoller to just follow. Also the upper wind regularly comes over the mountains and they have to work with that also. In addition as you are on the left downwind to 34L, straight in traffic from over FFU is on the 34R loc. There is VERY little room for you to make the left turn from downwind to base then base to final. Anyone who is not turning at 30 deg of bank is going to have serious trouble. Most of the time it was American's 88's. 15 deg and no more. Yes, I asked them. My soulution, along with most all conrollers was to climb them to 110 and send them to OGD to either hold or end of the line.
There is NO room to do anything with the MVA's so the heading changes are the only way to keep you out of the mountains and the controllers from having a deal, I know, I had one right there over U42.

I humbly stand corrected! Gosh, there I go doing exact thing that gets me all riled up when other people do it--making judgements without any remote knowledge of the facts of the matter. And orignially suspected that it was some sort of scenario exactly as you had described before I jumped on the bandwagon. Apologies, apologies!

-Goose

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I humbly stand corrected! Gosh, there I go doing exact thing that gets me all riled up when other people do it--making judgements without any remote knowledge of the facts of the matter. And orignially suspected that it was some sort of scenario exactly as you had described before I jumped on the bandwagon. Apologies, apologies!

-Goose

No worries at all man!!

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

I went into there a couple weeks ago and the captain I was flying with said the same thing. They act like they are controlling NY or Washington DC airspace over there.

Could someone please explain, why the SLC controllers both approach and center but mainly approach seem to be one of the most retarded bunch out there. Come on SLC isn't even that busy. Someone shed some light please.

 

[BushwickBill]

My favorite is a flight that takes 1 hour 36 minutes and a taxi that takes 27 minutes. No joke and this is not just one occurrence, we are 3 for 3 of landing 34 right and taxiing all the way to the east side. This followed by a 22 minute delay for departure with both engines running. Total waist of fuel for just one of the days was about 1500 lbs, or about $1600.00. Very sad when they have a nice general aviation runway that dumps you right off into Million air

This happens ALL the time when we fly into SLC

AND even though we request 35 sometimes the controllers just say we are not going to give it to you.

That taxi time is no exaggeration.

IN all fairness, I'm really just pissed because I want out of the airplane.

It is however a big waste of money.

And if you give a crap oil/ carbon etc.

Cheers

 

[Goose Egg]

I'd say that 9/10 times, our taxi in SLC is 5 minutes or less (and in the Bro we are in and out of SLC every other leg). It's just if you hit it during the Delta rush, expect some delays. It seems like landing South and then having to taxi over to the E gates from Rwy 17 is the worst combo--I think we waited for 20-30 minutes once just to cross 16L.

But I've waited just as long in LAX and SFO.

-Goose

 

[Rizzo]

As a Boston Center controller, thanks for all of the compliments...we are fantastic LOL

As for crappy controllers, they are everywhere. Part of the problem, which is going to get worse over the next few years, is the number of trainees working traffic. There are days where almost every scope has a trainee in front of it. And just wait until you are flying and every controller you talk to has been on the job for less than 3 years and no one has any experience....Friday and Saturday nights will likely be the worst since the senior guys have these shifts off.

Yesterday I was training. I've been a controller for 3.5 years, my trainee has been here for 1.5 years, and my D side for 1 year. So a combined total of 6 years of experience. Meanwhile, the next sector down had two guys with 15+ years each. Fun fun fun.

 

[Caveman]

BOS center: No problems
BOS approach: They have no idea how to vector you to ILS 4R below the glide. 6 times out of 10 you'll be cleared for the approach after a late turn to final above the GS. They do fine on 27 and 22L, but 4R is kicking their ass for some reason.