Slam Dunk In Florida...

[kilroy]

Has anyone else flying down the West coast of Fl. having problems with Jax slam dunking 35 N. of Lakeland at some ridiculous altitude. Everytime I come into Srq area we get a descend that would require 4000 VSI minimum to meet a restriction. This happens all the time. Lately I've been refusing the crossing restriction.

 

[mnixon]

I haven't gotten it personally, but I have been hearing it a lot on freq lately

 

[Flechas]

What's the problem with that? Unless you have a 150 kts tailwind you should be able to make it. I don't mind doing slam dunks, in fact, one once in a while changes the everyday rutine.
What kind of airplane do you fly?

 

[kilroy]

Descends at 350knots indicated and 420 knots across the ground to get down to loose 19000 feet in 20 miles requires a descent **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near resemblingan unusual attitude. Not to mention your pax's are looking straight down to the ground. Might be fun if you are hauling freight but not pax. Not to mention trying to keep the cabin pressurized with the throttles at idle.

 

[Flechas]

Now thats pushing it, the max we can do is 4500 fpm with the boards out and iddle. In that case I'd say unable too. That would take almost 7000 fpm.

What do you fly?

Descends at 350knots indicated and 420 knots across the ground to get down to loose 19000 feet in 20 miles requires a descent **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near resemblingan unusual attitude. Not to mention your pax's are looking straight down to the ground. Might be fun if you are hauling freight but not pax. Not to mention trying to keep the cabin pressurized with the throttles at idle.

 

[labbats]

Request lower prior to that point.

 

[Headwind]

JAX center gave me one this week that required 7600 fpm - I did not accept it and after about 30 seconds he said the next controller said to continue with a normal descent, then handed me off. I think about 3000 fmp is enough. It's not your fault the controller waits too long to give a crossing restriction. If you accept it and then can't do it you are at fault.

HEADWIND

 

[O-Line]

Has anyone else flying down the West coast of Fl. having problems with Jax slam dunking 35 N. of Lakeland at some ridiculous altitude. Everytime I come into Srq area we get a descend that would require 4000 VSI minimum to meet a restriction. This happens all the time. Lately I've been refusing the crossing restriction.

There's several of those "uncharted" descent points around the country. After getting slammed a couple of times, I just program the FMS to meet the restriction, before I get it.

That way when you get that initial descent say from FL390 to FL350 you're already coming down at an appropriate rate, and more often then not, right when you're about to level at FL350, you'll get "continue decent to FL310".

What happens is ATC has LOU's with the adjacent facility to cross you at that point, but as often happens someone's below you and they have to step you down. When you finally clear that traffic is when you finally get that "cross XVY at FL-10"

 

[FracCapt]

What's the problem with that? Unless you have a 150 kts tailwind you should be able to make it. I don't mind doing slam dunks, in fact, one once in a while changes the everyday rutine.
What kind of airplane do you fly?

You don't think that a 4000fpm required descent rate to meet a restriction is excessive? Screw that...I'm not throwing the boards out, and making it an uncomfortable and noisy ride for the pax because a controller wants me to make a BS descent.

 

[Flechas]

You don't think that a 4000fpm required descent rate to meet a restriction is excessive? Screw that...I'm not throwing the boards out, and making it an uncomfortable and noisy ride for the pax because a controller wants me to make a BS descent.

Once in a while is not big deal, if it were to happen everyday then I'dn't accept it. For the most part controllers start you down way out.
That's what the boards are for, to be used, I don't understand why so many people are afraid of using them. I understand the pax comfort thing, but if a controller needs help once in a while, I'd be glad to help.
What I try to do to improve pax comfort is make the transition smooth. Some peole want to strart down way out at only 2000 fpm, but when the go from level to 2000 fpm they give the pax a "0 G".

 

[FracCapt]

Once in a while is not big deal, if it were to happen everyday then I'dn't accept it. For the most part controllers start you down way out.
That's what the boards are for, to be used, I don't understand why so many people are afraid of using them.

Afraid to use them? Not quite. There shouldn't be a need to. IF it's a once in a while thing for extenuating circumstances...ok, fine. But, in certain areas, it's SOP, or it's just for no reason other than they give you the restriction late.

I can be going downhill at 3,000-4,000fpm without using the boards(as long as they don't want me going slow)...with a reasonable pitch attitude. If it comes to the point that I need to use the boards, somebody screwed the pooch.

Hopefully someday you'll realize that making a smooth transition when beginning/ending a climb or descent is pretty much the same as avoiding using the boards unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. I rarely use the boards...plan ahead and you don't need to. If given an outrageous restriction.....well, the word UNABLE comes to mind.

 

[Flechas]

Hopefully someday you'll realize that making a smooth transition when beginning/ending a climb or descent is pretty much the same as avoiding using the boards unless ABSOLUTELY necessary. I rarely use the boards...plan ahead and you don't need to. If given an outrageous restriction.....well, the word UNABLE comes to mind.

Why is it the same, doesn't feel the same in the back.
As far as using unable, the problem is that most likely the next thing that comes out of the controllers mouth is "turn 30 degrees right for vectors".

 

[Capthuff]

I have gotten that restriction to - I dont remember it being quite as bad as reported here, but, "Unable" is fine with me. I have also gotten unrealistic descent requests from Chicago westbound into UGN.

The other day I was going into Peoria and Chicago kept me up high - I was @ FL220 35 miles out with the airport in sight. Pretty simple solution - slow down and ask for lower. I got switched to PIA appr and @ FL215 was cleared for the visual (never gotten that before so high).
No boards needed - just proper planning.

 

[FracCapt]

As far as using unable, the problem is that most likely the next thing that comes out of the controllers mouth is "turn 30 degrees right for vectors".

Big deal. Spend another minute or two in the air because of the vectors. If enough people do that, they'll learn. If people always accept the restrictions, and come sailing down at 6,000fpm, they'll always give it to you. You've already made your choice, because apparently you think that using the speedbrakes is fun and breaks up the monotony. I've made my choice because I've been doing this for too many years to do stupid sh!t like that.

 

[labbats]

I have gotten that restriction to - I dont remember it being quite as bad as reported here, but, "Unable" is fine with me. I have also gotten unrealistic descent requests from Chicago westbound into UGN.

The other day I was going into Peoria and Chicago kept me up high - I was @ FL220 35 miles out with the airport in sight. Pretty simple solution - slow down and ask for lower. I got switched to PIA appr and @ FL215 was cleared for the visual (never gotten that before so high).
No boards needed - just proper planning.

If you fly that route often, you may make a phone call and ask the best way to avoid the arrival corridor. I recently flew with a captain who stopped our climb at a certain altitude to avoid this very scenerio. I wish I could remember the specifics.

 

[AlabamaMan!!]

File to BRAVE...ENW...then UGN.....keeps you out of the ORD arrivals and not quite so bad of a descent.

 

[kilroy]

Exactly F()ck them.. I've never had use the boards in 9000+ hrs except for a medical emergency. I don''t accept them and I don't slow down to help the descent rate. It seems Jax,Orl and TPA atc has issues on sectors accepting aircraft at certain altitudes. I'm not going to make my pax's uncomfortable for atc problems.

Big deal. Spend another minute or two in the air because of the vectors. If enough people do that, they'll learn. If people always accept the restrictions, and come sailing down at 6,000fpm, they'll always give it to you. You've already made your choice, because apparently you think that using the speedbrakes is fun and breaks up the monotony. I've made my choice because I've been doing this for too many years to do stupid sh!t like that.

 

[Kingairrick]

I think it has to do with the comm. between the center sectors/tracon. We always get BLOND int @ 10000 when coming in over the Gulf on Q100. BLOND is 22 miles from PIE. Just plan to be slow @ BLOND to make it into PIE without the boards.

 

[Flechas]

Big deal. Spend another minute or two in the air because of the vectors. If enough people do that, they'll learn. If people always accept the restrictions, and come sailing down at 6,000fpm, they'll always give it to you. You've already made your choice, because apparently you think that using the speedbrakes is fun and breaks up the monotony. I've made my choice because I've been doing this for too many years to do stupid sh!t like that.

Dude, you don't have to get mad. I never said I'd accept a 6000 fpm descent, 4500 is the most I ca do with the bpards open, and 3500 without them.
Most of the time we have very little time between turns, and for the most part, vectors (in IAH) means they have to stack you back in the line, especially if there's weather around (today I didn't take a heading because of wx and sure enough, was 20 minutes late).
So that's why I rather open the boards than take a vector, maybe not a big deal for corporate guys.

 

[Capthuff]

Thanks AlabamaMan!