Skywest Union Vote

[Splert]

To this day SkyWest has better trip rigs, minimum pay guarantees, deadhead pay, and vacation policies than many other carriers.

SkyWest does not have a trip rig.

If SkyWest had a trip rig then the minimum pay guarantee would be meaningless for 95% of the trips that we do. Minimum daily pay is great for locals but locals are becoming a thing of the past at SkyWest. Our great out station domiciles are flying 320-360 hours away from base. A daily guarantee is worthless compared to a trip rig.

Deadhead pay…wow we can eat for a year on the difference between 100% dead head pay and 50% deadhead pay especially with our great utilization where our pay check is mostly the 1 for 2 duty time guarantee and not block. Great, we get paid 100% of 55 minutes of DH, then we sit for 5 hours during the day and they add 55 minutes of 100% DH pay to our block time for the day and then pay us the higher of our block or our 1 for 2 duty time guarantee. Super meaningless. Looks good on paper but it is worthless. Especially, with a 1 for 3.5 or 3.75 TAFB TRIP RIG which we don’t have. You might find one or two cases where a 100% DH work out but for the majority of the flying we do a TAFB TRIP RIG takes care of all this issues.

Vacation accrual: Your kidding yourself if you think ours is better or the best.

Look back and leg cancellation: Is no big deal if a 1 for 3.5 or 3.75 TAFB TRIP RIG is in place. 95% of our flying are trips, not locals. Cancel day 2 of a four day trip, I don't care, I'm still away from my base.

I'll take a trip rig over all those other illusionary guarantees SkyWest and SAPA are so proud to misrepresent.

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

:Hey guys, those of you not here at Skywest probably misconstrue the meaning of recent events. Although I honestly don't speak for anybody but myself, I think I can clarify at least in a small part the recent events here.

Nobody is saying we're better. We aren't. We do have some things other's don't in our 'contract', we are missing some things we would like that others have. That really wasn't the issue with this last union drive.

To those who say we don't have a contract currently, you are right! We have an agreement. Could management change is anytime they wish? Sure! Have they in the history of the airline? Not really. Middle managers have changed their interpretations on some things, however for the most part, we can rectify most of those situations in a timely manner. Other's may take longer, but for the most part they get done. Management will not simply, overtly change our agreement to their liking therefore hosing the pilots. If they did there would be a revolt, and probably ALPA. Not a regional pilots best friend, but were we would probably go in revenge. They know that, so they won't go there.

To those who disagree, I realize I am oversimplfying some of these points, but only to get to the main point. I am as anti union as they come. But even I realize that Skywest will eventually will become a union airline. It will happen, no doubt about it.

My problem with this last union effort is lack of organization. Now i know it's a HUGE deal to organize an inhouse union. But this effort came off to me, haphazard at best. Many ideas were flawed or simply illegal from the beginning, not instilling confidence at all. And though anti-union, I did honestly look into it with open eyes because I was frustrated at what we had. In the end I realized that at least with what I had seen, I would be better off with the two evils I do know, management and SAPA, than with another unkown.

Simply, this was a vote of no confidence with the organizers. We know we have problems, most of us choose to fight the fight with the tools we have, rather than those we haven't figured out how to pay for yet.

 

[sstearns2]

I know you guys hate hearing this, but I'll say it anyway:

The next time a bill introducing cabatoge, or increasing duty limits, or criminalizing accidents, or installing cameras in cockpits is defeated on Capitol Hill ..........

....... thank a dues-paying ALPA pilot.


Cheers!

I was under the impression that ALPA's PAC is not supported by general membership dues, but by other donations. I can't imagine that there is much money left over for ALPA national at the regional level anyhow.

Scott

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I was under the impression that ALPA's PAC is not supported by general membership dues, but by other donations. I can't imagine that there is much money left over for ALPA national at the regional level anyhow.

Scott

ALPA National has the audience of congress on particular issues that deal w/ the airline industry. In addition, when 9/11 occured ALPA Prez was on the conference call with all the transportation leaders. At one point it was declared "well, there goes jumpseating" ALPA Prez DW said hold on... So it went from no jumpseating to keeping on line jumpseating. (the Skywest pilots benifited from that, don't you think?)

The regionals can benefit from the majors big salaries. That is one of the reasons to be in ALPA. The same reason why 50 states are part of the USA. When one state has a natural disaster, there is money and resources from the other 49. (hint hint, Skywest)

As far as ALPA-PAC, that is voluntary and the ALPA membership avg contribution rate is a low 18%. The problem with ALPA-PAC contributions is, pilots think thier money goes to non pilot issues...(like abortion or welfare or liberal issues, for example) (it doesn't). So they don't give. Or they think they are getting ripped off at 1.95% and god forbid if they give ALPA (read themselves) one more damm cent.

Unless there is another professional airline pilot PAC, in theory Southwest, jetblue, and all pilots should give to ALPA-PAC. (or create a non ALPA pilot PAC. The AMR/APA dudes have thier own PAC) Why? Because SWA and jB are using the money that thier pilots help generate and give to the airline management PAC, known as the ATA.

Management has the Air Transport Association (created in 1936 in part to counter ALPA's effectiveness on Capital Hill) and pilots have ALPA.

Right now, airline management gives more in millions than pilots do to thier repsective PACs. Money talks, something else walks. Who do you think is going to get the legislation they want? Do you think management is interested in protecting Pilot careers or do they just want hourly labor?

Well, thats my shameless Sat. morn spin zone.

Give to the PAC cause the career you save may be your own! (c'mon, what is five freakin dollars? Have one less beer on an overnight per year!)

Here, I'll even help....

For more information about ALPA-PAC, please contact the ALPA Government Affairs Department at (202) 797-4033 or via e-mail at [email protected].

 

[strega7]

(hint hint, Skywest)

Should that be (hint hint, Skywest and JetBlue)?

 

[SLOTH]

Ability to drop or swap just part of a trip
Ability to define vacation - not locked in to taking entire week

Dave B.

That's all nice and dandy if one could get any time off when they need it... not when the company has the staffing to allow it! In some other reply you mentioned flexibility, but it means squat if you can't even make use of it because of whatever is happening within the company (ie. not enough staffing). Many crews have decided that it is much easier to get the time off when they claim to be ill and that leaves the company the problem to fill the void without anyone being available.

Sloth

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Sloth,
I agree with you there. The main thing to realize is that this stuff runs in cycles. I've seen periods of time when they were begging people to take vacation or user time and other times when 20 vacation requests in a row get denied. I'd like to see the 3.5:1 or 3.75:1 trip rig but we need to be careful what we need to give up to get it. Right now schedules and QOL are impaired due to the schedules demanded by the codeshare partners. Not much the company can do about that. However in a few years the frequency may be restored and the existing gurantees we have will be more valuable.

Unfortunately a union would not necessarily solve the problem. In fact the same kind of stuff goes on at union airlines. There is no silver bullet.

 

[Caveman]

"To those who say we don't have a contract currently, you are right! We have an agreement. Could management change is anytime they wish? Sure! Have they in the history of the airline? Not really. Middle managers have changed their interpretations on some things, however for the most part, we can rectify most of those situations in a timely manner. Other's may take longer, but for the most part they get done. Management will not simply, overtly change our agreement to their liking therefore hosing the pilots. If they did there would be a revolt, and probably ALPA. Not a regional pilots best friend, but were we would probably go in revenge. They know that, so they won't go there."

Care to explain the situation when your management arbitrarily decided to stop paying new hires in training? Are you suggesting that you guys agreed to that? What will they decide to change next?

 

[SLOTH]

Unfortunately a union would not necessarily solve the problem. In fact the same kind of stuff goes on at union airlines. There is no silver bullet.

I agree, but in the end it is really the company that calls the shots. All we can say is that we would disagree with their decision, but we end up without any sort of system to "force" the hand of management. As far as "things run in cycles" is concerned. The problem is that we the workers don't have a say in when or where those cycles affect us. Upper management may not have complete control over those cycles either, but they do have a hand in the up front planning that takes place that ultimately determines how deep the cycles run. Why should we carry the burden for their lack of action/inaction? I don't remember being asked what we need to do regarding the staffing situation, so it isn't my responsibility.

Sloth

 

[nimtz]

Hey good job Skywest guys! Mmm, Mmm, that is some good d@mn koolaid they serve in Utah! At least you guys can look forward to a properous future in the growing 70 seat market. Look forward to an industry competitive 50 seat wage to fly an airplane that produces 29% more revenue! Congratulations, really I'm happy you are so happy having you're heads up your @sses.

 

[JBcrjca]

nimtz-

Well obviously the SkyWest pilot group isn't the most unified in the country...but I'm sure that all of the SW pilots on this board will agree with me on this point: shut your piehole. It's great that you seem to know what's best for the SW pilots, but really...you ExpressJet guys need to worry about ExpressJet, and the SW guys will worry about what goes on at SW. Every pilot group has to do what they have to do, with no need to answer to anyone else. I know this post is pointless, because the jabs will continue... and before you know it, mcpickle will be here accusing SW pilots of begging for his precious leftover meals.

btw, I voted for the un...oh, nevermind...I don't need to justify anything to you guys.

 

[AviatorTx]

Even Gulfstream is Union.

Suck Fkywest!

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Hey good job Skywest guys! Mmm, Mmm, that is some good d@mn koolaid they serve in Utah! At least you guys can look forward to a properous future in the growing 70 seat market. Look forward to an industry competitive 50 seat wage to fly an airplane that produces 29% more revenue! Congratulations, really I'm happy you are so happy having you're heads up your @sses.

Why don't you pull your own head out of your a$$, or whoever's a$$ you have your head in.

I didn't vote for the union because I didn't think UPA was up to the task of making things better at SKYW. By your logic I suppose any union is better than no union, eh? I believe that if you're going to do something, you need to do it correctly. I didn't want to waste my dues on a half-a$$ union. If I wanted to pay dues, I'd make sure it was on a full-a$$ union!!!

And by the way...if you are complaining about the whole 50/70 seat thing, why don't you complain about companies like North American, Ryan, Airborne, Omni, Polar or Atlas. Did you know that a SkyWest RJ captain makes more than a B767 captain at North American? Pilots at North American make the same if they fly the 757 or 767, just as SKYW piltos make the same for the RJ50 and RJ70. If we used North American's pay scale as a benchmark, then SKYW RJ pilots make too much!!! Who is to say which payscale is the benchmark?

GP

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Isn't that same pay for both 50 and 70 seat aircraft an 18 month TA expiring this year? Seems like we'll have to wait and see what the pay actually turns out to be. Right now SKYW only has a few 70 seaters anyway.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

WTF???

Why don't YOU get YOUR OWN head outta yer Arse!!

Let me guess, you're a SAPA guy too, right?

Apparently your computer is a model that still has the sarcasm filter installed.

Re-read the statement I made, dude.

I said, IF we used North American's pay scale as a benchmark, THEN SKYW CRJ pilots make too much. Thank God this industry doesn't use their pay scale as a benchmark.

Lighten up, Francis! And next time, don't take statements I make out of context!

GP

 

[MYFpilot]

Even Gulfstream is Union.

Now there's a good union. Make all the FO's PFT and pay union dues as-well. Sounds great, where do I sign up???????????????????????????

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

Care to explain the situation when your management arbitrarily decided to stop paying new hires in training? Are you suggesting that you guys agreed to that? What will they decide to change next?

Frankly, I wasn't paid either five years ago, that's just the way some things go. That actually changes with the ebb and the flow of the industry, I expect it will change again when we have trouble filling classes. We looked at trying to change that, SAPA did actually, but it was reasoned that new-hires don't fall within the scope an employee group. Kind of like a probation thing. That should probably be fixed I would think.

I find it funny that Skywest gets attacked for being non union, free loaders and touted as ruining the industry. The loudest complaints usually come from SOMEBODY WHO PAID FOR THEIR JOB! COtEX, Comair, Gulfstream and others... I actually find it funny. I literally sit by myself and laugh out loud. My shrink isn't that amused though.

But you know what, and this is the honest truth... so what? We all do what we have to do, and let me let some of you into a little secret. THERE IS NO AVIATION BROTHER OR SISTERHOOD. There are issues to be dealt with... but you deal with yours, we'll deal with ours. I don't give a flying duck what the guys and gals at COtEX or Eagle do with their union dues, so nobody should care that I don't pay any. IT'S NOT YOUR PROBLEM.

 

[bayoubandit]

You should care! It's those guys paying union dues that are most likely going to set new pay rates at Skywest. Sad I have to work with guys like you.

We made it their problem when the vote passed to fly 50-70-90 seats at the same rate. Dumb then, dumb now.

New hire pay shouldn't be fixed, it MUST!

 

[Splert]

Right now schedules and QOL are impaired due to the schedules demanded by the codeshare partners

BS. That excuse is just SAPA/SGU cool aid.

Our schedules suck because we don't have the Trip Rigs that protect us from suck a$$ schedules.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

The 2:1 duty rig still costs SGU money. Noone is making the company money sitting in the crew lounge. Utilization is less than it used to be. A trip rig would result in crews making more money but I'm not sure it would fix the schedules.

 

[Caveman]

ExFokkerFlyer,

I agree the Skywest pilots can agree to whatever they want but, like it or not, whatever one group agrees to has an effect on what other groups can achieve. I also find it ironic that you guys are claiming to be independent and free spirits and all that but you rely on others to set your pays rates for you.

You can rationalize the new hire pay situation any way you want but the cold hard truth is you guys had no say in the matter. That's my real point. I'm not suggesting that you guys have to be ALPA but it's time you joined the party and got yourself a collective bargaining agreement that is legally binding.

I do resent that your pay is based soley on what the highest paid similar carrier is being paid. Unless you are participating in the processs to help improve things you guys are nothing but freeloaders. If just once you guys could get your management to make you the highest paid pilot group all this criticism would disappear. With or without a contract the perception that you guys are living large off of other people's hard efforts would diminish significantly. Get off the bench and take your turn at bat.

I have more respect for CHQ pilots. While their contract may or may not live up to my standard they at least took their turn and tried to raise the bar. I know a lot of folks aren't real happy with the outcome but it was a tough time econmically to be negotiating and they did get significant improvements in most areas of their contract. They didn't sit back and say we'll take whatever Skywest gets, or Comair, or whomever. They participated in the process.

 

[nimtz]

nimtz-

Well obviously the SkyWest pilot group isn't the most unified in the country...but I'm sure that all of the SW pilots on this board will agree with me on this point: shut your piehole. It's great that you seem to know what's best for the SW pilots, but really...you ExpressJet guys need to worry about ExpressJet, and the SW guys will worry about what goes on at SW. Every pilot group has to do what they have to do, with no need to answer to anyone else. I know this post is pointless, because the jabs will continue... and before you know it, mcpickle will be here accusing SW pilots of begging for his precious leftover meals.

btw, I voted for the un...oh, nevermind...I don't need to justify anything to you guys.

I'd love it if all I had to worry about is my house, but guess what everyone's pay/compensation is based on what their peers do. Make up all the BS you want, but those of us that actually put the effort in to make things better have learned this bitter lesson. That is why our friendly federal mediator told us to indefinetly go home and think about how we are being unreasonable in expecting our FO's to make enough money to support a family. After all according him and managment we need to be more like our peers at Skywest.

But that's fine you guys keep smiling skimming off the hard work of others. Sooner rather then later there will be mulitiple contracts by your peers that your managment team will hesitate to match for you guys. But I'm sure most of your guys will just be happy to have a job. If what your suits did to you guys with the 70 seaters didn't light a flame under your @sses now then you have no hope in the future. BTW, management saves!

 

[nimtz]

And by the way...if you are complaining about the whole 50/70 seat thing, why don't you complain about companies like North American, Ryan, Airborne, Omni, Polar or Atlas. Did you know that a SkyWest RJ captain makes more than a B767 captain at North American? Pilots at North American make the same if they fly the 757 or 767, just as SKYW piltos make the same for the RJ50 and RJ70. If we used North American's pay scale as a benchmark, then SKYW RJ pilots make too much!!! Who is to say which payscale is the benchmark?

GP

I'm sorry I must of missed something. How many former UAL Mainline routes is North American flying? BTW, leave Airborne out of this discussion. Look at this if you need proof... http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/abx/abx.htm

 

[ACWild]

I said, IF we used North American's pay scale as a benchmark, THEN SKYW CRJ pilots make too much. Thank God this industry doesn't use their pay scale as a benchmark.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Our (North American) captain pay rates are embarassing, in my opinion. We've just started contract negotiations, but it's going to take a while to hammer something out. I think it's going to be an eye-opener for some of our guys when I tell them that our pay rates are being laughed at by regional pilots, (although I'd much rather work at NAA).
Sorry for the brief hijacking, but someone did mention North American.

 

[Splert]

No one is making the company money sitting in the crew lounge

That is the queer thing about SkyWest. Having a general lack of utilization and who pay for it is built into the contract with UAL. The overhead costs associated with this lack of utilization are paid for my UAL. SGU is smart enough to understand that it's UAL schedule that we are contracting to fly and UAL shares the risk (overhead costs) of the utilization problem that they create for us. UAL and our QOL pay for it not SGU.

The company is covered we are not. Didn't SAPA explain that to us? Not a chance...

The 1 for 2-duty rig does not cost SGU jack when we fly 4-day trips that credit 3:45 for the middle two days of the first and last or all 4-days.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

I'm sorry I must of missed something. How many former UAL Mainline routes is North American flying? BTW, leave Airborne out of this discussion. Look at this if you need proof... http://www.airlinepilotpay.com/abx/abx.htm

I stand corrected on Airborne.

Trust me, I'm just as pi$$ed about RJ's taking over mainline routes as anyone.

And no, I don't think SKYW CRJ pilots make too much!

GP

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

You can rationalize the new hire pay situation any way you want but the cold hard truth is you guys had no say in the matter.

That's true, I didn't deny that, but I don't care either. I wasn't paid either, they can suck it up. If we are losing too many potential employees then the kool aid drinkers will fix it.

I do resent that your pay is based soley on what the highest paid similar carrier is being paid. Unless you are participating in the processs to help improve things you guys are nothing but freeloaders. If just once you guys could get your management to make you the highest paid pilot group all this criticism would disappear. With or without a contract the perception that you guys are living large off of other people's hard efforts would diminish significantly. Get off the bench and take your turn at bat.

So if anybody, be it Horizon, ExpressJet, Eagle, ASA... anybody, were to base their new rates off of Comair's... by your rational they would be freeloaders too would they not? Oh wait, that's right, they pay union dues. **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** I wish I could be that cool. Have those cool like union pins on my ID. I bet you guys had forts when you were kids huh? Secret handshakes? Yeah...


You guys pretty much have to forget about worrying about us having a union or not. We will have one eventually. I promise you that, there is no way that we won't. But I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**!ed if I am going to vote in a group like we had the last time. The reason we don't have one really is not all this anti union crap. At this turn it was because it was like a bunch of fourth graders put it together. I know they worked hard, maybe they didn't have enough help, vision, clue, or something, but it is bad and that's why it wasn't voted in.

Now you guys go play with your secret decoder rings, and I'm going to go about spending that 2% I get to keep.

 

[No.W.]

You guys who say we "screwed the brotherhood of pilots" are painting with too broad a brush. I voted "YES" on the union here at SkyWest and I am happy with the outcome of the vote. Do I think a union would have improved life here...yes...in the long run...but OUR pilot group has spoken. That's democracy. I am sick and tired of hearing how we are all one big brotherhood...to tell you the truth, that sounds more like cult following, kool-aid drinking rhetoric than the stuff we hear from management at any airline. We aren't a "brotherhood" we are a bunch of guys at different companies trying to make our lives better. I thought UPA could do that AT SKYWEST and that is why I voted the way I did. I plan on being here a while and I think it would be great to have some 'muscle'. However, I did NOT vote yes to "join the brotherhood of unionized pilots" I have enough to worry about in my own life...at my own company without worrying about fixing your problems to. Fix your own problems. I say "bravo" to CHQ as well. Any pilot group that comes together and forces their QOL up I look at and say...'good job guys'. I don't feel that way because it makes it easier to make my QOL better...I feel that way because I am a generally nice guy and like to see people get ahead in life. Again, I am worried about my life here at SkyWest. I would pull my hair out if I had to worry about all the other regionals around the country. Perhaps that is shortsighted. Perhaps that is selfish. I think it is reasonable. If you guys want to bash SkyWest because we are non-union...I can't stop you. I will say this...the pilot majority here spoke and I will continue to work within the confines of OUR decision...but I won't accept the fact that all of us here are apathetic in improving our QOL. In fact, I would say it is just the opposite...we are just divided on how to go about doing that. I don't know one pilot at any company who is just sitting back at "drinking the kool-aid". I see a lot of guys educating themselves and making informed decisions. Just my 2 cents

N

 

[Caveman]

"So if anybody, be it Horizon, ExpressJet, Eagle, ASA... anybody, were to base their new rates off of Comair's... by your rational they would be freeloaders too would they not?"


No, they would be taking their turn at trying to improve the going rate. Meanwhile, Skywest pilots sit back, do nothing and let others do the heavy lifting. You guys agree to get whatever everybody else negotiates for without ever doing any negotiating your self. You risk nothing while others risk everything. Even if you don't have a union you guys should take your turn instead of letting others set the bar for you. At least Eagle, Horizon, et al have been willing to risk a strike to demand a better wage. All you guys want to do is say "We'll take what they have". If you guys just once demanded and got ABC plus 5% then I'd have a little respect. Until that day ever happens you guys are just freeloaders.

BTW, I do agree that you guys are free to behave as you see fit. It's a free country. However, there are consequences for your collective behavior and I reserve the right to observe your behavior and find it disagreeable. Union or no union. That's your choice and to each his own, but I will not respect your collective unwillingness to improve things. You can choose to usurp others hard work and. frankly, we can't do anything about it. But I don't have to like it and it is my right to call you on it. You don't have to like or agree with others impressions of your pilot group, but you do have live with it because until things change you will be looked at as unwilling to carry your fair share of the load.

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

Caveman - don't want nor need your respect. This is all about getting up each day and living our own lives not about what somebody else is doing with theirs. I wish you the best in yours.

No. W. - excellent post. I had arguments with friends about this the whole time during the drive. The most enlightening result was the we all agreed that we need to do something, we just differed on how to go about it at this time.