SkyWest Union vote

[Russ]

SWA dude
Things have changed at SkyWest. Your before my time, but even my time here has allowed some insight. I was hired a bit before the UA contract and those were far different times. If you still have any here, talk to your buds and ask them to contrast pre and post UA contract life at SkyWest. We have gone from being among the highest paid to a promise from SGU to be industry average. We used to have acceptable schedules and now its not. The seniority list is sidelined every time a bid comes and SAPA won't do anything about it because it costs the company too much money.

I don't pretend my short time here gives me the perspective I would like. I don't believe in re inventing the wheel so I ask from the senior guys what they see as the trends and almost all have seen QOL take a hit.
I have never been a huge union fan, but its time for change.

 

[SWAdude]

Russ,

It has been a long time since I have worked for Skywest and alot has changed since my time there. I do have a few that I keep in contact with and I fly with many that have recently worked at Skywest. Only you guys really know whats best for you.

On that note, unions are not the fix all that most assume to be. Since my time at Skywest I have belonged to two different unions. Both I have had a love hate relationship. But neccesary for the environment we are in.

Most pilots are not happy with their unions, but can't live without them.

My guess is that your pilot group will vote down the proposal. Its a huge commitment.

SWAdude

 

[Rogue5]

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment:

It's time for the pilots of SkyWest to start contributing to this profession.

Would you encourage us to do so at the expense of our own prosperity as a pilot group? I have no doubt that SkyWest pilots benefit from the struggles made by every pilot and every pilot group, legally organized or not, that has come before them, but are you suggesting we "take one for the team" and vote in a union even if it comes at the expense of our prosperity as a company, as a pilot group, and as employee-stockowners?

I think you will have to give us that it is up to SkyWest pilots as a whole, and each pilot individually, to decide if this is right thing to do right now for the benfit of SkyWest pilots (in a quality of life/business sense, not a romantic/moralistic one).

To suggest we vote in a union, even to the detriment of our own pilot group is ridiculous. It goes against the stated reason for SkyWest organizing in the first place: the betterment of the lives of SkyWest pilots.

As a disclaimer let me state that I am tremendously interested in this subject, as are most pilots I talk to here, but I am also of two minds on this subject, again, as most pilots here are. We all realize this is the most important decision this pilot group can make. But ranting and slinging mud on both sides do not help one make a reasoned choice.

Most pilots are unionized by virtue of being hired into a union shop, few have had the responsibility of deciding whether or not that is a good idea.

 

[sstearns2]

Most pilots are unionized by virtue of being hired into a union shop, few have had the responsibility of deciding whether or not it is a good idea.

I wanted to pick this out so everyone will see it. This is one of the most insightful things I've read on this board about unions.

Scott

 

[sstearns2]

I suppose it doesn't matter, then, about contributing to pilot interests on Capitol Hill. You know, when the government toys with the idea of installing cameras in your cockpit, or the Air Transport Association tries to change flight/duty limitations in their favor (that is, not in your favor.) Remember a few years back when the airlines tried to convince the FAA the while you were on reserve you were actually on rest? What about cabotage? Improved airport signage, input in new aircraft design, consulting with the FAA before rule changes?

I'll bet Mr Whitlow at Pan Am III (you know, the 16 hour thing) was happy to be an ALPA member.

A small, in-house, independent union isn't really contributing their fair share to pilot-interest lobbying.

I agree that the non-ALPA carriers benefit from ALPAs political actions in general. Has ALPA ever concidered approaching SAPA with the idea of volentary contributions? It might sounds silly, but there is a compelling arguemnt that non-ALPA carriers ought to contribute to ALPAs lobby as we do benefit from it.

Scott

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

A small, in-house, independent union isn't really contributing their fair share to pilot-interest lobbying.

Oh okay... so now that a union vote is actually underfoot, we (SkyWest pilots) are still not good enough because it's not ALPA???

You have to be frickin' kidding me!!!

You know, I don't have all much of a problem with somebody outside SKYW saying that... you don't have our perspective, and it's REALLY NOT your problem.

What I do have a problem with is my SKYW bretheren using this board to discuss this. We do have our own message boards guys, this isn't anybody else's business. It's like a family, we should yell at and degrade each other behind closed doors! That was said with a little humor intended BTW.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

We have gone from being among the highest paid to a promise from SGU to be industry average. We used to have acceptable schedules and now its not. The seniority list is sidelined every time a bid comes and SAPA won't do anything about it because it costs the company too much money.

Russ, I agree with you that some schedules do suck and we are no longer paid the highest. The lousy junior schedules in the RJ was one reason I left the RJ and upgraded to EMB captain in IAH. Unfortunately I really don't think UPA or any other union is going to be able to do much about bad schedules. Our major partners set our schedules and SkyWest comes up with the lines. I think there may be some things that can be done to improve them but I think the kind of schedules we have (especially on the RJ) are due to the nature of the RJ, it's use to supplement mainline flying at odd times, along with the inability of SkyWest to set our own schedule times. I recall that flying through DFW had some of the worst schedules imaginable with long waits, high TAFB, and long duty days. Unfortunately I think the quickest way out of bad schedules is better seniority, not a union. The most unhappy captains I flew with were junion commuting RJ captains who got the bottom of the barrel. How will UPA make schedules better? Trip rigs and higher duty rigs? If so have you suggested this to SAPA via a PIC?

Regarding pay, I would love to be paid more. But how is UPA going to make that happen? What would we have to give up for them to give us higher pay? Trip rigs and duty rigs, etc?

Regarding seniority, I imagine you mean the practice of transfering already qualified pilots to a domicile in front of more senior pilots who are not equipment qualified. I think this is a valid issue. Have you written a PIC to SAPA about this? Again would how would UPA have more leverage than SAPA when it comes to this issue?

UPA advocates keep repeating the phrase, "Legally Binding Contract". That's great but what if our new "Legally Binding Contract" is worse than our current "At Will Crew Policy Manual". Then if the company doesn't follow the contract we do have the power to file a grievance and force the company to follow it, but again, what guarantee do we have that UPA will barter a better contract than our current policy manual with SAPA? Contract negotiations require give and take -- leverage. What leverage does UPA have? All I can see is that it has the leverage of striking after the long negotiations process put in place by NRLA are through. That can take years. SAPA's leverage is the threat of forming a union. SAPA may appear like toothless tiger but most issues do get resolved through PICs and the tireless work of SAPA reps.

I agree with you that sometimes things aren't always perfect here at SkyWest, but no one has proved to me that UPA is going to do a better job of SAPA when it comes to these issues. If you can prove that to me I will vote a resounding "YES" but until then I will vote "no".

 

[GogglesPisano]

Oh okay... so now that a union vote is actually underfoot, we (SkyWest pilots) are still not good enough because it's not ALPA???

You have to be frickin' kidding me!!!

You know, I don't have all much of a problem with somebody outside SKYW saying that... you don't have our perspective, and it's REALLY NOT your problem.

What I do have a problem with is my SKYW bretheren using this board to discuss this. We do have our own message boards guys, this isn't anybody else's business. It's like a family, we should yell at and degrade each other behind closed doors! That was said with a little humor intended BTW.

Okay then. Elect not to join ALPA.

The next time a piece of anti-airline pilot legislation is shot down on the Hill (cockpit cameras, cabotage ...) don't forget to thank a passing ALPA pilot.

 

[sstearns2]

Okay then. Elect not to join ALPA.

The next time a piece of anti-airline pilot legislation is shot down on the Hill (cockpit cameras, cabotage ...) don't forget to thank a passing ALPA pilot.

The major airline members of ALPA are the ones that really fund the Washington lobby. The regional members absorb the same if not more money from ALPA national as they put in.

If Skywest were to become part of ALPA we would immediately need a lot of ALPA nationals resources to negotiate a contract and set up our MEC. It would take us a long time to pay that back and start actually contributing to ALPA national. There's a reasonable chance that our contract would run out before we paid ALPA national back and we would be a net absorber of resources.

Scott

 

[Catbird]

Don't believe the ALPA towel boys one second. Alpa needs you in the club so they can control the flying for the benefit of the mainline carriers. PERIOD.

Woerth and his legal team will negotiate a contract for you. The same way a car title loan company will loan money on the equity on your car. The interest rate can touch upon 40%. What the ass's at ALPA do is look at your total membership x 1.95%. Lets say that equals 300k. You can operate a In house union for that amount. If you use ALPA they will execute a LOAN in excess of this amount during operations, especially contract negotiations. This expense is large when you have the ALPA legal crooks negotiating. The cost spiral out of control. The next thing you know the Skyways MEC will be into ALPA Legal for a charge of 500k in addition to the normal dues of 300k. ALPA will message the new MEC (especially the MECC) with the ALPA credit cards and expense accounts. There accounting practices make ENRON look amateur. When push comes to shove, Alpa will drive a substandard contract up your ass so that your mainline brothers flying is protected.If the MEC and especially the MECC doesn't play the game ALPA will call the note and plead we cannot afford this corruption you will asses you members to pay the loan. If the MEC doesn't capitulate, they will throw the cards on the table and leave the MEC as the villains. Thats a fact. Your nuts if you let ALPA on the property, you would do better inviting the Cali Cartel for representation. When they murder you they at least look you in the eye. When Woerth dies, they will not bury that Mother*ucker, they will screw him into the ground he is that crooked. The Alpa of old is in no shape or form the Alpa of today. Todays ALPA is a corrupt POS. Period....

 

[sstearns2]

....

So, let me get this straight. After an ALPA carrier ratifies a contract ALPA national presents the MEC with a bill for all the lawyer time and other resources used during negotiations?

Will the Mesaba guys get an assessment bill from ALPA national in the mail soon?

Scott

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

Catbird,

Didn't know all of that... but you are preaching to the choir as far as ALPA goes... thanks for the info though.

ALPA may be fine and dandy for a major, but a regional? Can you say conflict of interest?

Pisano, sorry to drag you away from reading "Flying the Line" long enough for you to tell me to get on my knees for an ALPA pilot. Must be he!! for you to come down to my level to speak to me. If I spit shine your ALPA pin, would that make it up to you?

 

[Freight Dog]

Take a look at AA's sickout fiasco during Reno merger - illegal job action which cost them millions of dollars. An in-house union, especially at a regional will lack the resources of a larger union like ALPA.

Now, I'm not saying it can't be done for SKYW crowd, but I do think that you would be better off with ALPA than an in-house union.

Don't pay much attention to those RJDC idiots - "mainline" is not coming to screw you over, steal your jobs etc. Besides, I wonder how many pilots were hired at those RJDC hotbeds like CMR/ASA since 9/11. In any case, you guys a contract carrier, not a wholly-owned. Ask ACA, Air Wisconsin, or TSA pilots how they got screwed by ALPA National. Don't let the way loudmouth vocal SMALL minority influence you.

Your union is only as strong as you make it. Hope you guys make it a strong one regardless whether it's ALPA or UPA.

 

[rumorhasit]

L.A. Pilot,

Many SkyWest pilots believe that the pay and benefits they receive are due to the enlightened graciousness of the company, recognition of the professional qualifications they bring to the position and their ability to handle any emergency. In reality though, they are paid because of the sacrifices of those pilots who went before them and the collective labor muscle they were able to employ through unions. It's time for the pilots of SkyWest to start contributing to this profession.

this needs to be on a billboard somewhere....

 

[GogglesPisano]

For the sake of experiment, then, let's hope Skywest votes for an in-house union instead of ALPA.

We'll have our results in a few years.