SkyWest Union vote

[ExFokkerFlyer]

A small, in-house, independent union isn't really contributing their fair share to pilot-interest lobbying.

Oh okay... so now that a union vote is actually underfoot, we (SkyWest pilots) are still not good enough because it's not ALPA???

You have to be frickin' kidding me!!!

You know, I don't have all much of a problem with somebody outside SKYW saying that... you don't have our perspective, and it's REALLY NOT your problem.

What I do have a problem with is my SKYW bretheren using this board to discuss this. We do have our own message boards guys, this isn't anybody else's business. It's like a family, we should yell at and degrade each other behind closed doors! That was said with a little humor intended BTW.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

We have gone from being among the highest paid to a promise from SGU to be industry average. We used to have acceptable schedules and now its not. The seniority list is sidelined every time a bid comes and SAPA won't do anything about it because it costs the company too much money.

Russ, I agree with you that some schedules do suck and we are no longer paid the highest. The lousy junior schedules in the RJ was one reason I left the RJ and upgraded to EMB captain in IAH. Unfortunately I really don't think UPA or any other union is going to be able to do much about bad schedules. Our major partners set our schedules and SkyWest comes up with the lines. I think there may be some things that can be done to improve them but I think the kind of schedules we have (especially on the RJ) are due to the nature of the RJ, it's use to supplement mainline flying at odd times, along with the inability of SkyWest to set our own schedule times. I recall that flying through DFW had some of the worst schedules imaginable with long waits, high TAFB, and long duty days. Unfortunately I think the quickest way out of bad schedules is better seniority, not a union. The most unhappy captains I flew with were junion commuting RJ captains who got the bottom of the barrel. How will UPA make schedules better? Trip rigs and higher duty rigs? If so have you suggested this to SAPA via a PIC?

Regarding pay, I would love to be paid more. But how is UPA going to make that happen? What would we have to give up for them to give us higher pay? Trip rigs and duty rigs, etc?

Regarding seniority, I imagine you mean the practice of transfering already qualified pilots to a domicile in front of more senior pilots who are not equipment qualified. I think this is a valid issue. Have you written a PIC to SAPA about this? Again would how would UPA have more leverage than SAPA when it comes to this issue?

UPA advocates keep repeating the phrase, "Legally Binding Contract". That's great but what if our new "Legally Binding Contract" is worse than our current "At Will Crew Policy Manual". Then if the company doesn't follow the contract we do have the power to file a grievance and force the company to follow it, but again, what guarantee do we have that UPA will barter a better contract than our current policy manual with SAPA? Contract negotiations require give and take -- leverage. What leverage does UPA have? All I can see is that it has the leverage of striking after the long negotiations process put in place by NRLA are through. That can take years. SAPA's leverage is the threat of forming a union. SAPA may appear like toothless tiger but most issues do get resolved through PICs and the tireless work of SAPA reps.

I agree with you that sometimes things aren't always perfect here at SkyWest, but no one has proved to me that UPA is going to do a better job of SAPA when it comes to these issues. If you can prove that to me I will vote a resounding "YES" but until then I will vote "no".

 

[GogglesPisano]

Oh okay... so now that a union vote is actually underfoot, we (SkyWest pilots) are still not good enough because it's not ALPA???

You have to be frickin' kidding me!!!

You know, I don't have all much of a problem with somebody outside SKYW saying that... you don't have our perspective, and it's REALLY NOT your problem.

What I do have a problem with is my SKYW bretheren using this board to discuss this. We do have our own message boards guys, this isn't anybody else's business. It's like a family, we should yell at and degrade each other behind closed doors! That was said with a little humor intended BTW.

Okay then. Elect not to join ALPA.

The next time a piece of anti-airline pilot legislation is shot down on the Hill (cockpit cameras, cabotage ...) don't forget to thank a passing ALPA pilot.

 

[sstearns2]

Okay then. Elect not to join ALPA.

The next time a piece of anti-airline pilot legislation is shot down on the Hill (cockpit cameras, cabotage ...) don't forget to thank a passing ALPA pilot.

The major airline members of ALPA are the ones that really fund the Washington lobby. The regional members absorb the same if not more money from ALPA national as they put in.

If Skywest were to become part of ALPA we would immediately need a lot of ALPA nationals resources to negotiate a contract and set up our MEC. It would take us a long time to pay that back and start actually contributing to ALPA national. There's a reasonable chance that our contract would run out before we paid ALPA national back and we would be a net absorber of resources.

Scott

 

[Catbird]

Don't believe the ALPA towel boys one second. Alpa needs you in the club so they can control the flying for the benefit of the mainline carriers. PERIOD.

Woerth and his legal team will negotiate a contract for you. The same way a car title loan company will loan money on the equity on your car. The interest rate can touch upon 40%. What the ass's at ALPA do is look at your total membership x 1.95%. Lets say that equals 300k. You can operate a In house union for that amount. If you use ALPA they will execute a LOAN in excess of this amount during operations, especially contract negotiations. This expense is large when you have the ALPA legal crooks negotiating. The cost spiral out of control. The next thing you know the Skyways MEC will be into ALPA Legal for a charge of 500k in addition to the normal dues of 300k. ALPA will message the new MEC (especially the MECC) with the ALPA credit cards and expense accounts. There accounting practices make ENRON look amateur. When push comes to shove, Alpa will drive a substandard contract up your ass so that your mainline brothers flying is protected.If the MEC and especially the MECC doesn't play the game ALPA will call the note and plead we cannot afford this corruption you will asses you members to pay the loan. If the MEC doesn't capitulate, they will throw the cards on the table and leave the MEC as the villains. Thats a fact. Your nuts if you let ALPA on the property, you would do better inviting the Cali Cartel for representation. When they murder you they at least look you in the eye. When Woerth dies, they will not bury that Mother*ucker, they will screw him into the ground he is that crooked. The Alpa of old is in no shape or form the Alpa of today. Todays ALPA is a corrupt POS. Period....

 

[sstearns2]

....

So, let me get this straight. After an ALPA carrier ratifies a contract ALPA national presents the MEC with a bill for all the lawyer time and other resources used during negotiations?

Will the Mesaba guys get an assessment bill from ALPA national in the mail soon?

Scott

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

Catbird,

Didn't know all of that... but you are preaching to the choir as far as ALPA goes... thanks for the info though.

ALPA may be fine and dandy for a major, but a regional? Can you say conflict of interest?

Pisano, sorry to drag you away from reading "Flying the Line" long enough for you to tell me to get on my knees for an ALPA pilot. Must be he!! for you to come down to my level to speak to me. If I spit shine your ALPA pin, would that make it up to you?

 

[Freight Dog]

Take a look at AA's sickout fiasco during Reno merger - illegal job action which cost them millions of dollars. An in-house union, especially at a regional will lack the resources of a larger union like ALPA.

Now, I'm not saying it can't be done for SKYW crowd, but I do think that you would be better off with ALPA than an in-house union.

Don't pay much attention to those RJDC idiots - "mainline" is not coming to screw you over, steal your jobs etc. Besides, I wonder how many pilots were hired at those RJDC hotbeds like CMR/ASA since 9/11. In any case, you guys a contract carrier, not a wholly-owned. Ask ACA, Air Wisconsin, or TSA pilots how they got screwed by ALPA National. Don't let the way loudmouth vocal SMALL minority influence you.

Your union is only as strong as you make it. Hope you guys make it a strong one regardless whether it's ALPA or UPA.

 

[rumorhasit]

L.A. Pilot,

Many SkyWest pilots believe that the pay and benefits they receive are due to the enlightened graciousness of the company, recognition of the professional qualifications they bring to the position and their ability to handle any emergency. In reality though, they are paid because of the sacrifices of those pilots who went before them and the collective labor muscle they were able to employ through unions. It's time for the pilots of SkyWest to start contributing to this profession.

this needs to be on a billboard somewhere....

 

[GogglesPisano]

For the sake of experiment, then, let's hope Skywest votes for an in-house union instead of ALPA.

We'll have our results in a few years.

 

[Obi-Wan]

One thing you SkyWest pilots need to realize is that your management spends thousands of dollars every year on Labor relations. The term labor relations are just a facade for union busting. I've read many of the arguments against having a union posted on this site and they are all straight out of the union busting play book. I congratulate your organizing committee on choosing to go for an independent union. If they had gone the ALPA route management would have exploited that to the fullest extent and make them look like and outside entity. It happens everyday in this industry. Their job is to make the union look like an outsider, to take the U and the I out of UNION. I promise you as you get closer to your voting date management and their despot pilots who you all know who they are will spread the following rumors:
1) We want to improve things but we can’t do it now or its going to look like union busting.
2) We will lose our open door policy and lose our relationship with management.
3) Contacts are easily broken by a judge so why waste your time getting one.
4) They will make the union look like an outside entity.
5) Lets give management one more year and if SAPA does not work out the union drive will be back next year.
6) Why give 2% of your money to someone else.
7) We want expand and a union will hinder our efforts.
8) The UPA will merge with ALPA in the future, and they only care about the majors.
I can go one forever. They will promise you the world and break them the day the vote does not go through. What you need to remember is that if you have a good relationship with your management and they care about you, it will stay the same after you become unionized. Bad labor relations are bad for business. If they care about you so much and have your best interests in mind, they should not have any problems with putting your work rules in a legally binding contract. The reason they don’t want a contract is that they wan to reserve the right to change the rules if they choose to do so. It’s not the first time this has happened and it won’t be the last time. Don’t drink the Kool-Aid no matter how tempting it is. This just happened at Commuter a few months ago. They promised the pilots the world. Many people where on the fence and they drank the Kool-Aid and they all regret it now. I promise that management will not improve thing afterwards. If anything they will worsen since they know you are divided. Remember they look at it as business and so should you. When you go to the negotiating table you need all the support possible. Your independent union will have far more leverage than SAPA. At the least you will get what you already have in a legally binding contract. Good luck and I hope you guys and gals make the right decisions.

 

[Truckdriver]

When is this vote suppose to happen? Is it something coming up soon or is it going to be one of those year long union campaigns? For those of you with SkyWest pilots in your hubs, start doing some campaigning when you run into them in the McDonalds line.

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

I realize that the vast majority of you guys think you are doing the right thing by encouraging the in house union. I appreciate your sentiment, and thank you for your efforts even though I disagree. There is a whole list of reasons of why now is not a good time for THIS in house organizing effort... I just don't think it's a good idea to smear those reasons around on a public site. I have worked at other companies, non union, and Skywest is definitely different. I believe one day that Skywest will be a union shop, but now is not the right time, or at least, this is not the right way. And no, I am not going to quote the company 'union busting' rhetoric.... I have my own.

So while I do appreciate your point of view... remember it's not your company, it's not something YOU will have to live with should it go the wrong way. So if you run into me in the McD's line at an airport don't bring up the union drive. We can chat about something else more friendly.

 

[Truckdriver]

So when is this vote suppose to go down? If you answer that question for me then I will leave you alone in the Mcdonalds line. If I don't get an answer then I'll bother you about it.

I do agree with you on what you said. It's your deal and you will have to live with it not us. If you guys can get what you want as a pilot group without a union, all the more power to ya. The day will come when Jerrry A and the boys start screwing you over and telling you they can't help you out because they have to compete with some of the bottom feeders out there. When that day arrives then you'll need a union. However, it may be a wise choice to get a union in house and figure out HOW to use it before you NEED to use it. Just my thoughts.

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

No word yet on when the vote will happen, they just petitioned the NMB a week or so ago.

What a lot of outsiders don't understand, or I guess really don't know... is that a large percentage of the anti-union crowd are not in fact drinking the company Kool Aid. I for one HAVE been screwed by the company many times, feel we are now, and expect to be in the future. I just disagree with the in house union crowd on the best way to handle it. I am not alone here either.

I'm sure the details of the vote will be made public as soon as they are established. And I'm sure that people outside of the company will make their opinions known... and hey, that's fine. I just hope that my bretheren make their cases known to those who can do something about it... ie the rest of the SkyWest pilots, rather than whining on here like I am doing.



See you guys at McD's.

 

[Truckdriver]

Thanks for the info I just wanted a timeframe for when something was going to happen. I also agree with the whining on public boards. Your energy should be used elswhere as you stated, but it does at least give some a place to vent. Unionizing is a VERY serious decision to make and one that should not be taken lightly. Unfortunatley, many peoeple will take it lightly and not realize the impact it will have on their job. I work for an ALPA carrier and see BOTH the good and bad that a union brings to a pilot group. In a perfect world we wouldn't need ALPA and I could spend my 1.95% on aluminum wheels and chrome for my sweet 97 Saturn. Until we have a perfect world, I think unions are going to be necessary in the aviation world, especially over the next decade within the regional industry.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ahhh...the big bad union.

Many of you have read my posts on organization, the RLA and ALPA. Do a search.

TWA had an in house union in "the beginning" A history lesson for us all.

Ask the Mesaba guys how effective thier campaign would have been without ALPA.

Each MEC is thier own with the National level support.

ALPA has it's problems, like any organization.

Why did FedEx and CO come back to ALPA?

Are 66,000 professional pilots just plain stupid?

Having an in house union is like have the prosecutor simultaneously act as your defense attorney.

A vote for ALPA or your own union is a promise to volunteer. Don't expect others to do your work. You want it clean?...pick up the mop.

ALPA has been around since 1931. The ATA was formed in part to combat ALPA's effectiveness on CapHill. (has ALPA been destroying airlines for that long? )

Unions don't ruin companies...bad management does. Need I say the L word?

Required reading...see below. Education is the key. ALPA isn't a black and white choice. Get informed and choose what is best for you.

 

[flyingforfood]

Sky West Gouge

Got a call from OO today. Does anyone know where to get the best gouge on the interview?

Thanks in advance,
Respectfully flyingforfood...

 

[MONKEY]

Having an in house union is like have the prosecutor simultaneously act as your defense attorney

I have to disagree with you on this one. Most regional pilots understand that times have changed and they will not be moving on to the majors like they had planned. Having a union, ALPA, who looks out for the intersts of it's mainline members ahead of it's regional members is like having your prosecutor be your attorney. I don't want to turn this into an RJDC thing, I don't agree with what they are trying to accomplish, but they do make a few good points.

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

Having an in house union is like have the prosecutor simultaneously act as your defense attorney.

I echo MONKEY's sentiments and also add that this analogy simply does not make any sense.

Maybe I’m just a dumb pilot, but an in house union does not mean that the company runs it... simply means an independent union funded by and run by it's own members within the company. If you came to another conclusion Rez, maybe you are the one that needs to get informed. An argument could be made however that your example is what we have now... I don't agree entirely, but I could see how you could get there.

I don't think that 66,000 pilots are stupid. If you work for UAL, DAL or the like, it's necessary and makes sense. But when your livelihood is in direct contrast with other groups that your union may serve... well that leaves you at a disadvantage. But that's neither here nor there, and I am sorry if I have made this a pro/anti union post.

My point is that until you get your SkyWest seniority number, and have been here long enough to get away from the Kool Aid drinkers... you can't tell me what SkyWest pilots should or should not do. It is our decision, and only we know what's best. I would never tell you or your pilot groups what you should do!


For somebody who has stated that he wants to stay out of the fray, I know I am writing a lot of posts. I'm out with a herniated disc, and am now bored out of my skull. My apologies that ya'll have to suffer too!