Skywest to Unionize?

[USCtrojan]

Unions

I think this is the best point to realize here. I have jumped over the fence so many times about this union thing that I should have permanant motion sickness. I have been at SKYW almost 4 1/2 years and I do feel like I work for the best regional out there. Have I worked at another airline? No Do I feel like we are getting treated fairly? No, but we do get treated better than others. What is my greatest fear? That we unionize ask for a huge pay increase, have a slow down/strike and Jerry throws his hands up and resigns.

I believe we need a fair contract and we should get additional pay for the 70 & 90 that reflects our additional productivity & responsibility. How much more? 3-5% more for the 70 & 90 respectivly would be a good start. Longer callout for reserves, & restore the uniform allotment.Yet, I don't wanna hear the, "Highest pay till the last day" mentality.

USC trojan:
You bring up a good & valid point with the whipsaw & I wouldn't put it past SKYW to do that to us. So the question begs, what makes a good union? If you ask me it's one that works for it's members, but also doesn't choke the company so hard that it puts it into the red, thereby choking off their own union members. The union needs to be objective, rather than subjective and look for ways to work with the company in ways that would be mutally beneficial.....alas, I am now in dream world and need to wake up.

I'm in a dream world too, but am too hungover to wake up!! Like others have said on this board, your Union is only as good as your people. I don't think the Skywest pilots are going to demand huge payraises overnight. You want the company to prosper and do well as it has. You also want Management to honor their agreements with you. A contract will provide that for you. Belive me, if we at ASA didn't need a Union, I'd love to get rid of it/never have it in the first place. Unfortunately our management team sucks like no other. They manage to piss off even the most moderate of pilots here. Myself included and I'm a rather understanding dude relatively speaking. If our management team was kicked to the curb tomorrow, we'd see an instant improvement in morale. I shouldn't speak for anyone on this board, but I believe I would get overwhelming support in that last statement. Jerry, I think knows this. And may use it in the future. Almost overwhelmingly, our pilot group is very positive about Jerry's leadership abilities. He's incredible. I want to help him "rule" the regional world, while also hold him to his promises. I don't want to break the bank so to speak, and I certainly don't want to be unreasonable. I'm positive my fellow pilots for the most part would agree here. Whipsaw is becoming uncontrollable. We have to take the necessary steps to stop it at some point. Do I blame Jerry? Heck no, I'd do the same thing, it's smart business in cutting your costs. We just have to call him on it, that's all. We have to be smart because unfortunately, Jerry is 5 steps ahead of us already.

Trojan

 

[propjockey]

Hey fellas, I've been flying all day but I'm back now. I, too, appreciate how incredibly civil this discussion has been. Continuing with the civil airing of differences, one of the primary things that I don't like about unions is that they seem to rule with FEAR as the primary motivating factor. For example:

1. Fear that you're going to lose your job
2. Fear that you'll lose your medical
3. Fear that you'll take a paycut
4. Fear that what happens to some other employee group will necessarily happen to you
5. Fear that you're being cheated out of something by managementetc.

I fully agree with you union supporters that there are problems in the industry. Where I disagree, though, is how to go about correcting those problems. Bluto, I definitely concede your point about being able to "vote with your feet" in other industries. I just don't think the union is the correct way to handle these problems anymore. Honestly, I am not sure what the solution is. But again I look at SkyWest and all other regionals. Many union carriers are struggling now, but SkyWest is not. There isn't a single regional I'd rather be at right now. Were there ever truer words spoken than "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence?" Why do "sanitation engineers" make so much money? Probably not too many little boys say they want to be garbagemen when they grow up. Yet they make a killing. How about the longshoremen that run those big cranes? They make $100-200,000/yr(!!), but you're unlikely to hear of a kid who dreams of loading a container ship for a career.

As long as so many people yearn to fly AND can afford to do it (unlike Europe) or can legally learn it privately (unlike Mainland China), we will always have problems with too many pilots. Frankly, I am actually encouraged by how expensive it is becoming to get your certificates and ratings. I know it sounds twisted, but if it becomes prohibitively expensive in the US to learn to fly, the supply of pilots will eventually begin to lessen.

Simple economics:
Pilot supply outpaces demand, so they're a dime a dozen. All of you who took economics in college should remember that artificial price supports DO NOT WORK. Union demands for higher wages in the current environment of pilot oversupply are like the government (your tax dollars) paying farmers not to grow wheat. Those subsidies don't work, either. Overpaying pilots leads to increasing oversupply of pilots, leads to increasing pressure to reduce wages because pilots will sell their own mothers for turbine time. I would LOVE to be making as much as my dad was at United prior to 9/11!! I acknowledge that the union got it for them. The problem was that it wasn't sustainable in the long term (some would argue even in the short term). And the separate unionized groups fought like cats. (That's another problem. It's not just us vs. them. Often it's us vs. them and them and them, and everyone fights over who gets more pie.)

Fellas, unions (even the best MECs) are like pouring sand into a machine. If they don't stop the machine, they will at least slow it way down. With a union, everything moves at glacial speed. Everything has to be voted on. When United was looking for another carrier to move into DEN, they asked some unionized regionals how long it would take to be up and running. Their reply was on the order of months because of all the union voting and so forth that would have to be done. When they came to Jerry and asked him how long it would take before SkyWest could be ready to operate out of DEN, the answer was "as soon as we can load up the trucks and drive out there." I would prefer to work for an employer unhampered by a union so they can turn on a dime and be proactive without worrying about somebody grieving everything.

With so many bad, or at least ineffective MECs out there, why are some of you so irrationally optimistic that a SkyWest MEC is going to be so wonderful? Remember, as I pointed out before, how fractured the SkyWest pilot group is. 16 domiciles for 2100 pilots leads to a LOT of conflicting interests.

 

[doh]

I want to be able to have the choice to pay or not. Basically forced fees is just like forced union membership. I simply want to be able to choose weather I want to pay for their services or not. I would be happy to pay just the fee if I was allowed to vote.

Was the union on the property when you were hired? You had the choice then! Complaining after the fact is cowardly. You could have gone to any number of non-union carriers, Colgan comes to mind. Or did you want the benifits without the responsibility?

 

[007]

Or did you want the benifits without the responsibility?

or the dues.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[007]

As long as so many people yearn to fly AND can afford to do it (unlike Europe) or can legally learn it privately (unlike Mainland China), we will always have problems with too many pilots. Frankly, I am actually encouraged by how expensive it is becoming to get your certificates and ratings. I know it sounds twisted, but if it becomes prohibitively expensive in the US to learn to fly, the supply of pilots will eventually begin to lessen.

I actually agree with this.

Simple economics:
Pilot supply outpaces demand, so they're a dime a dozen. All of you who took economics in college should remember that artificial price supports DO NOT WORK. Union demands for higher wages in the current environment of pilot oversupply are like the government (your tax dollars) paying farmers not to grow wheat. Those subsidies don't work, either. Overpaying pilots leads to increasing oversupply of pilots, leads to increasing pressure to reduce wages because pilots will sell their own mothers for turbine time. I would LOVE to be making as much as my dad was at United prior to 9/11!! I acknowledge that the union got it for them. The problem was that it wasn't sustainable in the long term (some would argue even in the short term). And the separate unionized groups fought like cats. (That's another problem. It's not just us vs. them. Often it's us vs. them and them and them, and everyone fights over who gets more pie.)

Then ask your MEC for paycut, if that is what want. The point is that you'll have a choice and that Jerry can't decide that for you.

The quality of your MEC will depend on who YOU elect.

That United's payrates were unsustainable was the result of a greedy pilotgroup, that got greedy because of a greedy managment. Unfortunately whats best for the pilotgroup and whats best for the company sometimes gets lost. MODERATION is the key. The best solution for that might not be the union, but not having any protection from greed is just downright crazy.

It's like taking an uninsured car and hope you don't get hit by a lawyer.

 

[007]

I want to be able to have the choice to pay or not. Basically forced fees is just like forced union membership. I simply want to be able to choose weather I want to pay for their services or not. I would be happy to pay just the fee if I was allowed to vote.

So let's have a couple of guys who are not part of the union on some property. The union will strike and the non-union guys cross the line, since they are not part of it. Sure you reap the benefits of both, Managment loves you and the union negotiates a new contract under which you now work. I think that is called something else.

If you were not to be part of the union, then I think you pay should depend on what managment wants to give you as a private employee. Not the same as everybody else under the cover of the contract. No legal, no insurance, and no protection from the FAA. Last time I looked the ASAP program was gated by ALPA.

Think about it Mr.Sugar. But I think you already have, since I think you're a managment employee.

 

[propjockey]

Just to put your minds at ease, despite the fact that I don't like unions and prefer not to join one, I respect a picket line and would never cross.

 

[D'Angelo]

So let's have a couple of guys who are not part of the union on some property. The union will strike and the non-union guys cross the line, since they are not part of it. Sure you reap the benefits of both, Managment loves you and the union negotiates a new contract under which you now work. I think that is called something else.

If you were not to be part of the union, then I think you pay should depend on what managment wants to give you as a private employee. Not the same as everybody else under the cover of the contract. No legal, no insurance, and no protection from the FAA. Last time I looked the ASAP program was gated by ALPA.

Think about it Mr.Sugar. But I think you already have, since I think you're a managment employee.

I could care a less about the legal, insurance and protection stuff. As far as im concerned they can have it. I still truly believe that if you are HONEST AND FORTHCOMING with your chief pilot if you make a mistake the truth will vindicate you. If you try and lie your way out of a screw up then union or not your going down. The union is so insecure that they have to make it extremely difficult to have a simple vote regarding the issue if the pilots still want them there or not. Unions absolutely prey on fear and paranoia. They use extreme worst case scenario examples for everything and try to get everyone all in fear.. ooooooh if you dont have a union your going to lose your job if you blink wrong. Oooooooh if you don't have a union you wont be able how to figure out how to get your medical back if you lose it because your too stupid to figure it out. oooooooooh if you don't have a union you will get fired because management hates everyone and just wants an excuse to fire anybody for the sheer thrill of it. The fact of the matter is people DO NOT get fired for any reason. If you lose your medical one of two things will happen. You will either find a way to get it back via talking with your doctor and finding out your opions. The other alternative is that you have a condition that is disqualifying with no way to get a special issuance and there is nothing the union could do for you anyway. They want you to think that your unclever and unresourceful and simply cant think for yourself. They want you to think you have to think like a "collective" what is this the freaking borg? ALPO would love to assimliate everyone of course. If they had it there way they would have everyone chanting all those stupid slogans and riverdance at the same time. Its amazing how much you can find out just by reading the regulations and talking with doctors to see what your options are. Unions don't want you to know that they really are unnessecary now a days. If you do lose your lisence thats what disability insurance is for. I never said I would cross a picket line either. I would gladly withdraw my membership however if I could retain the right to vote. At companies where unions have gone through a deauthorization drive(elimination of forced dues) the employee is still paid the same as everyone else. Unfortunately under the RLA there is no deauthorization drive. Why because the union is a bunch of cowards too scared to see what people really think of them.

 

[007]

I still truly believe that if you are HONEST AND FORTHCOMING with your chief pilot if you make a mistake the truth will vindicate you.

I agree with you here.




But in my mind not thinking as a collective has gotten us where we are today.
There are way too many me, me, me, me, me ,me and only me people around.
That applies to ALPA too. In the olden days the question was: Is this the best for the profession, now it's: is this the best for me.

Sad really, but continuing to think that way will definitely fix nothing, except your bruised pride maybe.

 

[sweptback]

Fellas, unions (even the best MECs) are like pouring sand into a machine. If they don't stop the machine, they will at least slow it way down. With a union, everything moves at glacial speed. Everything has to be voted on. When United was looking for another carrier to move into DEN, they asked some unionized regionals how long it would take to be up and running. Their reply was on the order of months because of all the union voting and so forth that would have to be done. When they came to Jerry and asked him how long it would take before SkyWest could be ready to operate out of DEN, the answer was "as soon as we can load up the trucks and drive out there." I would prefer to work for an employer unhampered by a union so they can turn on a dime and be proactive without worrying about somebody grieving everything.

What on earth are you talking about? There would be no voting on expansion plans by the company! However, the company must comply with the provisions in the contract for establishing a new base and how to move people out there (ie, ASA pilots get a paid move to a new base for the first 6 months that it is open and all displaced pilots get paid moves or a lump sum payout as well).

If the other companies could not open a base in the amount of time that SkyWest was able to, then it sounds like the other companies are just horribly inefficient. The union or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.

 

[D'Angelo]

Was the union on the property when you were hired? You had the choice then! Complaining after the fact is cowardly. You could have gone to any number of non-union carriers, Colgan comes to mind. Or did you want the benifits without the responsibility?

Hey the union may of been there but I was still forced to join. Just because I want a certain career doesnt mean I should have to accept the fact that the union was there. I wasn't a memeber for my first year and I did just fine without them. Then of course your forced to join or at least pay fees your second year.

 

[goahead]

okay you fly 50-70 (90 eventually) seaters for one rate and your worried about being represented fairly.................
WTF

 

[doh]

Hey the union may of been there but I was still forced to join. Just because I want a certain career doesnt mean I should have to accept the fact that the union was there. I wasn't a memeber for my first year and I did just fine without them. Then of course your forced to join or at least pay fees your second year.

The B.S.ometer just went off the scale! You could have a "certain career", which is flying, and do it at a non-union carrier. If you want a career at a specific company, then you are making a choice to accept the situation in totality.

 

[D'Angelo]

The B.S.ometer just went off the scale! You could have a "certain career", which is flying, and do it at a non-union carrier. If you want a career at a specific company, then you are making a choice to accept the situation in totality.

Again just because a union I dont like is there at an otherwise great company im not going to let them intimidate me via my way or the highway scare tactics. Im still going to get in there and do my thing. I owe no loyalty to the union whatsoever.

 

[flyer172r]

At companies where unions have gone through a deauthorization drive(elimination of forced dues) the employee is still paid the same as everyone else. Unfortunately under the RLA there is no deauthorization drive. Why because the union is a bunch of cowards too scared to see what people really think of them.

So you're saying ALPA is to blame for the RLA? You do know that there's this little thing called Congress which passes legislation like that, which in this case was probably written before ALPA existed (too lazy to check the dates). Why on earth would you think the union is responsible for the rules under which the NMB operates?

 

[D'Angelo]

So you're saying ALPA is to blame for the RLA? You do know that there's this little thing called Congress which passes legislation like that, which in this case was probably written before ALPA existed (too lazy to check the dates). Why on earth would you think the union is responsible for the rules under which the NMB operates?

Not saying ALPA in particular but im sure a lot of the transportation companies had something to do with it. Unions are too scared to have to be put up for a real election every few years to see what the pilot group really wants.