Skywest to Unionize?

[Bluto]

Bluto...I don't feel that I am a skywst pilot hater, just frustrated at the "inaction" of the group. I hope ALPA comes aboard soon.

From the outside, I can understand your perception of inaction. I assure you, our pilot group has been quite busy. Literally days after our last union drive failed, there were people talking and planning the current ALPA drive. These things take time. It's true, there is a large group of anti-union people, along with people who are just skeptical about what ALPA can do for us. Can you really blame them? It's a pretty tough environment in which to sell ALPA right now with Comair taking concessions, Expressjet fighting for their own flying and most of the standard 'bottom-feeder' airlines represented by ALPA. How can we explain to the new and ignorant pilots why ALPA is such a good thing, when it's easy to look around and see the obvious short-falls of ALPA all around us. Additionally, we have been hiring boatloads of people since the last drive failed. People like Peter Griffin (no offense, love your work Petah) or 1,000 hour CFI's have a hard time understanding why they should rock the boat and make drastic changes when things have been going so well for us compared to their last jobs. Without some perspective over the last few years at SkyWest, it's hard to understand the inertia mgmt has gained in terms of ignoring our needs.

Just to make sure you guys are understanding me, I think ALPA would be a step in the right direction at SkyWest. But we need to be realistic about what we can expect if it does get voted in. Things will likely get worse before they get better. It will take a tremendous effort to educate the widespread pilot group (both geographically, and in terms of personal belief). I think it's worth it, but it's very difficult to explain this to a new pilot, or someone firmly ingrained in the anti-union mentality.

 

[Peter Griffin]

People like Peter Griffin (no offense, love your work Petah) or 1,000 hour CFI's have a hard time understanding why they should rock the boat and make drastic changes when things have been going so well for us compared to their last jobs.

Just to make sure you guys are understanding me, I think ALPA would be a step in the right direction at SkyWest. But we need to be realistic about what we can expect if it does get voted in.

None taken:beer:. And dont get me wrong, Im not completely anti-union. I have seen and know that unions, ALPA included, can do good things for a pilot group. ALPA has been very influential in turning this career into a livable routine. Airline pilots owe a LOT to ALPA.

HOWEVER, I dont see ALPA as the solution to our problems. I know I am only looking through a very limited window here. The current major problem is integrating these two pilot groups. Hell, integrating two ALPA groups is hard enough (look at US Air and Am. West). We had more than a handful of pilots who wanted to git rid of ALPA at PDT, and if you think getting a union on the property is easy, try getting it out. I have no idea how we can join these two groups without a major change in labor at either airline. Maybe its time to form an in house union. There's more of my two cents (bringing me up to about .10 now)

 

[theo]

From the outside, I can understand your perception of inaction. I assure you, our pilot group has been quite busy. Literally days after our last union drive failed, there were people talking and planning the current ALPA drive. These things take time. It's true, there is a large group of anti-union people, along with people who are just skeptical about what ALPA can do for us. Can you really blame them? It's a pretty tough environment in which to sell ALPA right now with Comair taking concessions, Expressjet fighting for their own flying and most of the standard 'bottom-feeder' airlines represented by ALPA. How can we explain to the new and ignorant pilots why ALPA is such a good thing, when it's easy to look around and see the obvious short-falls of ALPA all around us. Additionally, we have been hiring boatloads of people since the last drive failed. People like Peter Griffin (no offense, love your work Petah) or 1,000 hour CFI's have a hard time understanding why they should rock the boat and make drastic changes when things have been going so well for us compared to their last jobs. Without some perspective over the last few years at SkyWest, it's hard to understand the inertia mgmt has gained in terms of ignoring our needs.

Just to make sure you guys are understanding me, I think ALPA would be a step in the right direction at SkyWest. But we need to be realistic about what we can expect if it does get voted in. Things will likely get worse before they get better. It will take a tremendous effort to educate the widespread pilot group (both geographically, and in terms of personal belief). I think it's worth it, but it's very difficult to explain this to a new pilot, or someone firmly ingrained in the anti-union mentality.

It is difficult to explain because it is a bad argument. You talk about a lot of strife , hard work and bad times for the "HOPE" that somewhere down the line it will turn around a become a good thing. Given the track record at ALPA represented carriers its a hope most of us can do without.

 

[propjockey]

I am neither a new pilot at SkyWest nor ignorant about unions. I don't want to touch ALPA with a 50 foot pole.

 

[rtmcfi]

I am neither a new pilot at SkyWest nor ignorant about unions. I don't want to touch ALPA with a 50 foot pole.

Are you happy with all of the improvements you have seen over the years thanks to SAPA?

 

[USCtrojan]

Unions

I am neither a new pilot at SkyWest nor ignorant about unions. I don't want to touch ALPA with a 50 foot pole.

And what happens if the ASA pilots decide to take the 8% paycut? Jerry comes back to SAPA and says, "Hey guys, I love ya, I want to preserve our company so you're gonna take a 5% paycut." What then? Can't you see this effects you too? Don't touch it, don't deal with it. It will deal with you. Don't get me wrong here. I envy you and your whole pilot group. You guys have had it GREAT!! You've been in your own world for so long and it has been lucrative and great. Due to your hard work and a great Management team Skywest has prospered well. Continue down this road and I think you may see it will hit you eventually. I want what's best for you simply because it is best for me. It's not Rocket Science. If I can somehow stop the race to the bottom (with my one vote), help preserve your quality of life and payrates, then maybe you'll do the same for me? I can only hope. Good luck. We're in this together whether you see it, believe it or not.

Trojan

 

[Bluto]

I am neither a new pilot at SkyWest nor ignorant about unions. I don't want to touch ALPA with a 50 foot pole.

Have you ever worked for an ALPA carrier? Do you feel SAPA is capable of negotiating with SGU? What better option do you suggest? Or do you feel our current representative structure is sufficient?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

Have you ever worked for an ALPA carrier? Do you feel SAPA is capable of negotiating with SGU? What better option do you suggest? Or do you feel our current representative structure is sufficient?

Just likes to drink lots and lots of Kool-Aid....

 

[Bluto]

If the latest pay vote has taught us nothing else, it's that any control SkyWest pilots have, any leverage we try to exert, is non-existent. We voted no, and nothing happened. The bottom line is this, our vote means nothing. What's the point of having a vote if there is no consequence for a no-vote? The company can't lose. If we vote yes, then it's an agreement the majority of our pilots chose. If we vote no, they just leave things the way we are and assume we're fine with no pay increase or COLA for the last 6 years. And don't tell me the MBIP is the largest pay raise in our history. Where is our leverage? The only reason they allow us to vote is so we feel like we have some control. Unfortunately, that illusion only lasts as long as we agree to whatever they offer. To me, the results of the last pay vote are proof that our system is broken, maybe irreparably.

 

[Bluto]

It is difficult to explain because it is a bad argument. You talk about a lot of strife , hard work and bad times for the "HOPE" that somewhere down the line it will turn around a become a good thing. Given the track record at ALPA represented carriers its a hope most of us can do without.

Hope has nothing to do with the plan for the future. Hope is the principle source of power for our current representative structure. Hope and the goodwill of our management are the only things that fuel SAPA, regardless of our reps long hours of hard work. We're extremely fortunate to have a management group as fair as ours is. With our structure, most airline's management would have us at the absolute bottom of the industry; pay, work-rules, everything. While nothing will change immediately with legal representation, at least we'd have some tools available to us. Some leverage with which to initiate change. It's no silver bullet, it's a long-term solution that will require hard work, dedication, and unity of our pilot group. But at least it's trading "hope" for actual tools. I'm not banking on ALPA's track record. It's the SkyWest pilot's track record that gives me confidence.

p.s. To clarify, I don't think things will get worse as a result of voting in ALPA, I think they'll get worse because that's the direction things are going now, and inertia is a powerful thing. I believe things will get worse before they get better regardless of our representative structure. As far as the "most of us" comment, I guess we'll see when it comes time to vote, won't we?

 

[Rekks Inbound]

Just keep in mind that D. Woerthless is a temporary fixture, and that he and the current BOD are the real problem with ALPA at the present time. Historically, ALPA has done a fairly good job of protecting jobs and careers. Some complain about the 2%, but it's a small price to pay for Aeromedical, Legal, Contract and yes Payscales, to say the least. Bluto is right.

Peace.

Rekks

 

[propjockey]

It's way past my bedtime and I'm very tired so this post is probably incoherent. My apologies. No, Bluto. Admittedly, it wasn't an ALPA carrier -- worse -- it was a Teamsters carrier. I felt like I had joined the mafia. Unions were a necessary force decades ago. Now they are anachronistic thieves and robbers preying on employees and feeding them full of crap about how much they "deserve." How would you like to have all those manufacturing jobs back in this country that were driven offshore in part due to unions? We can keep talking in circles forever, but we'll never convince each other. That's why I said talking unions is like talking religion and politics.

Leverage, you say. What leverage? What leverage do ASA pilots have right now? Strike? What happens if they strike? They get shut down and someone else fills the void. If the company goes out of business, it isn't "struck work" anymore.

What leverage do you have at a union carrier if they do something against the contract? They say "Tough. If you don't like it, grieve it with the union." A year and a half later, you get a day off. "At least it's something," you say. Big, fat, hairy deal. I'd much rather have the 18 months worth of 2% dues in my pocket than a day off a year and a half after the fact.

Bluto, forgive me. It's late and I don't feel like doing a search of previous posts. Have you worked for a union carrier before (ALPA or otherwise)? Have you worked any other type of job (post-college) besides flying?

People at SkyWest talk about deterioration of quality of life in the past 6 years. Do you remember what happened 6 years ago in this country that might have somehow contributed to the situation? How quickly some of you have forgotten the events that sent the entire airline industry reeling in this country over the past 6 years. (Not to mention the ripple effect with other industries. GM being near bankruptcy is another example.) Einstein talked about the definition of insanity as doing the same thing every time and expecting a different outcome (to paraphrase). How healthy are all the unionized regional carriers today? I dare say most are not very healthy. Even if they make a lot of money (like Mesa) some are Evil (like Mesa) or vile places to work. Again, I strongly believe that SkyWest's financial success and the fact that (despite the current problems) it is still a great place to work is due in large part to the fact that it has remained union-free all these years. It feels liberating to even say that: "union-free."

Time to dredge up another old post I wrote earlier:

"[Leverage is] Yet another track on the broken record. Why would anyone think the SkyWest MEC would be any more effective than any other ALPA Regional MEC? It's a utopian fantasy to think that we can "be strong" while other MECs are falling like dominoes. With 16 domiciles for 2100 pilots, SkyWest is one of the most fractured pilot groups in the country. Pilots in California and Salt Lake City might as well be working for different airlines, and the twain shall never meet. What's important to a senior Brasilia captain in Palm Springs is very different than what's important to a junior RJ FO in ORD."

I'm not drinking anybody's kool-aid. Yes, I've seen deterioration in the quality of life at SkyWest over the past few years. Do I like it? No. Do I think us being ALPA would have stopped it? Not for a second. I'm a realist. I got a Masters in Business with a specialization in corporate finance. I have worked in industries outside the airlines. I have been on both sides of the management/labor fence. I acknowledge that many managers and executives are greedy, arrogant, and selfish. I further acknowledge that a huge percentage of them are competent only at butt-kissing. But even if a union has a temper tantrum and strikes, you're never going to hurt them because they all have golden parachutes worth more than you'll make in a lifetime. Nothing is ever going to change that.

Unions and their members need to think less with their balls and more with their brains. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[propjockey]

I think the only "message" we sent to SGU with the last pay vote was that we were a bunch of idiots. (I voted NO along with the majority). Is 1.2% a laughable, paltry amount to offer? Yes. Was it insulting? Yes. Is it better than nothing? Yes. How much has your gasoline bill gone up in a month? I still pick up pennies when I find them in the street. That extra $40/mo would have helped me and my family, even if only a little.

Like it or not, I think D.L. was right in this case that we should have taken the money and run, and continued negotiating AFTER we took the money. Now what do we have to show for it? Now any raise is completely off the table for who knows how long. Bringing ALPA on the property isn't going to get us a raise any time in the next 4 years (citing ASA as an example of an ALPA company that has been in negotiations for 4 years). However, if things turn around in the industry and everyone starts making money hand over fist again, we might see a raise sooner. You picked this industry, and so did I. Volatility is something we all have to live with if we want to be airline pilots. ALPA would have you live in a fantasy land in which you can live like a fat cat whilst your company's gushing arterial red ink.

Yes, I know airline employees have been subsidizing air travel and filling the pockets of unscrupulous executives (ala Delta and Leo Millions). I don't like it. What has ALPA done about it? What can ALPA do about it?

That's what I thought...

 

[D'Angelo]

hear hear propjockey! An excellent summation of the last few years. Did ALPO do some good in the past? Yes but these are different times. The union way simply does not work anymore. Thumping the chest, throwing temper tantrums simply does not work anymore. Unions had their place in history however all they do now is provide false promises and expect people to fall on their swords. Its frustrating what has happened since 9-11 however this is the new era. You either adapt or die. Sticking to the methods of the past screaming for strikes and "having balls" no longer works. Anyone can be replaced at any time. The best thing to do now is what it takes to save your jobs. Trust me if anyone strikes in todays environment they are easily expendable especially when liquidation means no struck work. That way the flying goes to the lower bidder anyways, and you have to start all over. How does that solve anything? it only enhances the problem really. I highly doubt management would purposly piss their employees off however you have to have realistic expectations. Its still a better job to have than most. I do not like what has happened however its time to move on. Illogical anger does nobody any good. Terms like "burn it down" and "hold the line" have no meaning anymore. Unions are pretty much out of touch with reality. They still continue to try and spew the same crap over and over. It obviously isnt working and they refuse to change. Time to impeach those SOBs. Skywest is lucky they dont have to deal with all the BS and waste of money that comes with a union. At comair the struggle to impeach the union will be long and difficult. Perhaps someday when we are all ready we will be victorious. The real secret is to having ALPO walk out with as much egg on the face as possible.

 

[doh]

hear hear propjockey! An excellent summation of the last few years. Did ALPO do some good in the past? Yes but these are different times. The union way simply does not work anymore.

D'Angelo, how long you been flying junior? I have 18 years in. This is the 6th time through negotiations an the 6th time management has yowled about how "the industry is changed forever!" My B.S.ometer is off the scale. This is no longer a cyclical industry? Oh, horseshyte! This is a particularly bad cycle, but it is a cycle non the less. The most important change to work for is to get rid of government interference in the process. End the RLA and allow contracts to expire. Allow instant self help and/or lockouts. Let the market speak, if people can't settle face to face, let them exit the market and let new players come in.

You either adapt or die... Trust me ... I highly doubt management would purposly piss their employees off however you have to have realistic expectations.

No, because of government interference, management does not have to adapt. They simply run to court and get more time to stroll down the road to ruin. Why not, they keep getting those outrageous bonuses and their lawyer butties (that is not a misspelling) keep soaking us all. I would not trust anyone who wants more government so I think I will pass on trusting you. Management will do anything, up to and including pissing off the employees if they think their free ride can continue.

 

[Crash Pad]

Skywest for the love of all that is holy GO UNION. I know one of these times it will pass and then I will log on to see your discontent. Bluto will be on here daily telling you how much your life s@cks. You can start hanging billboards and chanting slogans like ASA does.
You guys make more than 70% of regionals as far as w2's go. You make more than all the Delta feeders right now. Don't let that fool you. Management is screwing you and you need a union.
Lets talk QOL. Come on down to Atlanta and come see how happy the pilots at ASA are. Ear to ear I tell ya. When you are done with that you can go visit some Mesa pilots... Wow another cheery group. Then for kicks go talk to a 5 year reserve FO at horizon... Raising the bar! Did I mention Great Lakes... wow the union has done nothing but good over there.
I've been to SLC. You guys have no idea how happy you could be with a union.
Somebody say protection. Wow the union gives you mountains of protection. With a Union an incompetant pilot who lands on a taxi way can keep his job. Hell you can drive across a lawn and start a grass fire. A union gives life to careers that should end.
Come on skywest join the brotherhood. Management is screwing you.

 

[Bluto]

I think the only "message" we sent to SGU with the last pay vote was that we were a bunch of idiots. (I voted NO along with the majority). Is 1.2% a laughable, paltry amount to offer? Yes. Was it insulting? Yes. Is it better than nothing? Yes. How much has your gasoline bill gone up in a month? I still pick up pennies when I find them in the street. That extra $40/mo would have helped me and my family, even if only a little.

Like it or not, I think D.L. was right in this case that we should have taken the money and run, and continued negotiating AFTER we took the money. Now what do we have to show for it?

You're right, we won't convince each other. Yes, I've worked outside aviation, admittedly they were entry-level jobs during my furlough. Yes, I've worked for a union carrier and seen both very good and very bad care from the union for both myself and those close to me. This isn't about me, though. You think voting yes on the pay would be a good thing now. I couldn't disagree more. How soon do you think SGU would want to discuss pay again after it passed? How many things were wrong with that agreement? No amendable date. Single rate for CL-65 type. No COLA. For $40/month!? You'd sell your ability to negotiate for a reasonable pay agreement for $40/month? I'd rather cut out Starbucks or HBO if I was trying to save that much. IMO, there is no way SGU would continue negotiating (discussing, really) pay after an agreement was reached.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the teamsters. I agree that in a perfect world, there would be no need for unions. In many industries where workers are able to vote with their feet, unions are largely anachronistic. However, in an industry like ours where seniority is a major impediment to free market movement from bad to good companies, there needs to be some outside force encouraging managment to treat people well. We obviously disagree about the means to provide that encouragement, and maybe I'm a little naive, or idealistic, or both. But I think we can keep a good relationship and increase our options and resources as a pilot group. I'm not willing to throw up my hands and admit defeat until we've exhausted all options. I'm tired, too. I think I've said my piece.

 

[USCtrojan]

You're right, we won't convince each other. Yes, I've worked outside aviation, admittedly they were entry-level jobs during my furlough. Yes, I've worked for a union carrier and seen both very good and very bad care from the union for both myself and those close to me. This isn't about me, though. You think voting yes on the pay would be a good thing now. I couldn't disagree more. How soon do you think SGU would want to discuss pay again after it passed? How many things were wrong with that agreement? No amendable date. Single rate for CL-65 type. No COLA. For $40/month!? You'd sell your ability to negotiate for a reasonable pay agreement for $40/month? I'd rather cut out Starbucks or HBO if I was trying to save that much. IMO, there is no way SGU would continue negotiating (discussing, really) pay after an agreement was reached.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the teamsters. I agree that in a perfect world, there would be no need for unions. In many industries where workers are able to vote with their feet, unions are largely anachronistic. However, in an industry like ours where seniority is a major impediment to free market movement from bad to good companies, there needs to be some outside force encouraging managment to treat people well. We obviously disagree about the means to provide that encouragement, and maybe I'm a little naive, or idealistic, or both. But I think we can keep a good relationship and increase our options and resources as a pilot group. I'm not willing to throw up my hands and admit defeat until we've exhausted all options. I'm tired, too. I think I've said my piece.

Bluto, I have been trying to explain what you just did. Thanks for the post!!

Trojan

 

[theo]

p.s. To clarify, I don't think things will get worse as a result of voting in ALPA, I think they'll get worse because that's the direction things are going now, and inertia is a powerful thing. I believe things will get worse before they get better regardless of our representative structure. As far as the "most of us" comment, I guess we'll see when it comes time to vote, won't we?

Actually, we have "seen" twice already.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Wow the union gives you mountains of protection. With a Union an incompetant pilot who lands on a taxi way can keep his job. Hell you can drive across a lawn and start a grass fire. A union gives life to careers that should end.

Another thing I DONT like about unions. Frankly, as a "professional aviator," if I cant tell the difference between a taxiway and a runway, my career SHOULD end. I dont want incompotent pilots hanging around flying my mother across the country just because some union was haggling for his job. I just got a call from ALPA the other day trying to save the job of some guy I flew with. Worst pilot I have seen yet, but its all about setting a prescedent with them. It seems Skywest has been very fair in terms of who to let go in the past. Legally, if you dont like the reason you were fired, you are free to sue SKYW, however, if you were fired, it was probably for a good reason.

I also agree with the propjockey. This is all circular reasoning. I could come up with a hundred reasons to unionize and a hundred reasons not to. I personally say no. This is incredibly refreshing to be away from ALPA if nothing else.

p.s. kudos to those participating in this debate. Healthy, yet civil:beer:

 

[PBRstreetgang]

hear hear propjockey! An excellent summation of the last few years. Did ALPO do some good in the past? Yes but these are different times. The union way simply does not work anymore. Thumping the chest, throwing temper tantrums simply does not work anymore. Unions had their place in history however all they do now is provide false promises and expect people to fall on their swords. Its frustrating what has happened since 9-11 however this is the new era. You either adapt or die. Sticking to the methods of the past screaming for strikes and "having balls" no longer works. Anyone can be replaced at any time. The best thing to do now is what it takes to save your jobs. Trust me if anyone strikes in todays environment they are easily expendable especially when liquidation means no struck work. That way the flying goes to the lower bidder anyways, and you have to start all over. How does that solve anything? it only enhances the problem really. I highly doubt management would purposly piss their employees off however you have to have realistic expectations. Its still a better job to have than most. I do not like what has happened however its time to move on. Illogical anger does nobody any good. Terms like "burn it down" and "hold the line" have no meaning anymore. Unions are pretty much out of touch with reality. They still continue to try and spew the same crap over and over. It obviously isnt working and they refuse to change. Time to impeach those SOBs. Skywest is lucky they dont have to deal with all the BS and waste of money that comes with a union. At comair the struggle to impeach the union will be long and difficult. Perhaps someday when we are all ready we will be victorious. The real secret is to having ALPO walk out with as much egg on the face as possible.

d'Whatever,
2 simple question2, 1.Are you an ALPA member? 2. If you are, why don't you just pay the assessment and stand alone like you profess you would like to.
I didn't think so, more barking at the moon.
Pi$$ off
PBR

 

[007]

T
I'm not drinking anybody's kool-aid. Yes, I've seen deterioration in the quality of life at SkyWest over the past few years. Do I like it? No. Do I think us being ALPA would have stopped it? Not for a second. I'm a realist. I got a Masters in Business with a specialization in corporate finance. I have worked in industries outside the airlines. I have been on both sides of the management/labor fence. I acknowledge that many managers and executives are greedy, arrogant, and selfish. I further acknowledge that a huge percentage of them are competent only at butt-kissing. But even if a union has a temper tantrum and strikes, you're never going to hurt them because they all have golden parachutes worth more than you'll make in a lifetime. Nothing is ever going to change that.

So why don't you just roll over and die then. Seems you think there is nothing that can beat managment at their own game. WHY DO YOU THINK UNIONS were born in the first place.

Another DUUHangelo

 

[007]

Wow the union gives you mountains of protection. With a Union an incompetant pilot who lands on a taxi way can keep his job. Hell you can drive across a lawn and start a grass fire. A union gives life to careers that should end.

Another thing I DONT like about unions. Frankly, as a "professional aviator," if I cant tell the difference between a taxiway and a runway, my career SHOULD end. I dont want incompotent pilots hanging around flying my mother across the country just because some union was haggling for his job. I just got a call from ALPA the other day trying to save the job of some guy I flew with. Worst pilot I have seen yet, but its all about setting a prescedent with them. It seems Skywest has been very fair in terms of who to let go in the past. Legally, if you dont like the reason you were fired, you are free to sue SKYW, however, if you were fired, it was probably for a good reason.

I also agree with the propjockey. This is all circular reasoning. I could come up with a hundred reasons to unionize and a hundred reasons not to. I personally say no. This is incredibly refreshing to be away from ALPA if nothing else.

p.s. kudos to those participating in this debate. Healthy, yet civil:beer:

Nobody is saying that the union is the answer to all questions, I think all we're trying to convince you guys off is that the whipsaw with ASA will start as soon as they accept a paycut. YOU WILL get one next. SAPA can't do anything about that.

As far as the detrioration of QOL goes. Yes it's because of the last couple of years in the industry, but don't think for a second that jerry won't take advantage of that to keep his baby lean. Yes, he loves you, and yes, you're his kids, but I think you're maybe second best behind HIS company. Call me crazy.

When it does start, don't start posting here crying about it.

 

[theo]

Nobody is saying that the union is the answer to all questions, I think all we're trying to convince you guys off is that the whipsaw with ASA will start as soon as they accept a paycut. YOU WILL get one next. SAPA can't do anything about that.


When it does start, don't start posting here crying about it.

So if your convinced ASA will take a paycut...and you are ALPA. Then how will having a union stop Skywest from taking a paycut? You make it sound inevitable, so why get the union?

 

[QCappy]

Then for kicks go talk to a 5 year reserve FO at horizon... Raising the bar!

At Horizon:
#1 we have no FO's still on reserve after 5 years
#2 The reason we have 5 year FO's is because people want to stay due to the pay as a result of our UNION contract.
#3 A UNION contract is only as good as the pilots in the union. If they are strong, a good contract CAN occur. If they are weak, i.e. Mesa, Great Lakes, then a weak contract occurs. A union is as good as it's members.

 

[D'Angelo]

d'Whatever,
2 simple question2, 1.Are you an ALPA member? 2. If you are, why don't you just pay the assessment and stand alone like you profess you would like to.
I didn't think so, more barking at the moon.
Pi$$ off
PBR

1. Yes I am a member currently at comair. 2. I would like to pay the assesment however I would lose my right to vote. It blows A$$ having to waste my money every month but if I only paid the fee and withdrew I would have no right to vote. I want to retain my right to vote on contract issues. If they still let me vote and only pay the fee then I will happily withdraw my membership. I will also gladly resign my membership IF the union will "grow some balls" so to speak and not force me or anyone else who doesnt want to be a member to pay the assesment fee. Otherwise I might as well keep wasting my money and try to throw those bums off the property. I look back at all the money I have wasted because of being forced to pay the union every month. If you go back and calculate it really reminds you how much they have ripped you off all these years. Just think of all the steak and lobster dinners you can have with the lady by keeping them off the property.

 

[007]

So if your convinced ASA will take a paycut...and you are ALPA. Then how will having a union stop Skywest from taking a paycut? You make it sound inevitable, so why get the union?

I am not convinced at all, but what choice do they have?
Either they undercut you and start the whipsaw, or their airline is dissolved into Skywest and they lose their jobs anyway. Or you get your infamous staple.

Once they start the whipsaw.........

If you guys go union it would make more economic sense to just merge the pilotgroups.

 

[007]

1. Yes I am a member currently at comair. 2. I would like to pay the assesment however I would lose my right to vote. It blows A$$ having to waste my money every month but if I only paid the fee and withdrew I would have no right to vote.

So you like democracy, you just don't wanna pay for it in any way or form, is that it.

 

[D'Angelo]

So you like democracy, you just don't wanna pay for it in any way or form, is that it.

I want to be able to have the choice to pay or not. Basically forced fees is just like forced union membership. I simply want to be able to choose weather I want to pay for their services or not. I would be happy to pay just the fee if I was allowed to vote.

 

[Jeepman]

At Horizon:

#3 A UNION contract is only as good as the pilots in the union. If they are strong, a good contract CAN occur. If they are weak, i.e. Mesa, Great Lakes, then a weak contract occurs. A union is as good as it's members.

I think this is the best point to realize here. I have jumped over the fence so many times about this union thing that I should have permanant motion sickness. I have been at SKYW almost 4 1/2 years and I do feel like I work for the best regional out there. Have I worked at another airline? No Do I feel like we are getting treated fairly? No, but we do get treated better than others. What is my greatest fear? That we unionize ask for a huge pay increase, have a slow down/strike and Jerry throws his hands up and resigns.

I believe we need a fair contract and we should get additional pay for the 70 & 90 that reflects our additional productivity & responsibility. How much more? 3-5% more for the 70 & 90 respectivly would be a good start. Longer callout for reserves, & restore the uniform allotment.Yet, I don't wanna hear the, "Highest pay till the last day" mentality.

USC trojan:
You bring up a good & valid point with the whipsaw & I wouldn't put it past SKYW to do that to us. So the question begs, what makes a good union? If you ask me it's one that works for it's members, but also doesn't choke the company so hard that it puts it into the red, thereby choking off their own union members. The union needs to be objective, rather than subjective and look for ways to work with the company in ways that would be mutally beneficial.....alas, I am now in dream world and need to wake up.