SkyWest showing videos of crippled folks and.......

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Some of what Rez says is true but the benefits he speaks of could really apply if their was any union at Skywest. I don't think Rez means any union, he means ALPA. I am pretty sure if OO went Teamsters or created a Skywest Pilots Association he would on here berating you like he has with American or the USAPA.

IBT, APA or USAPA are not national unions connected internationally to other pilot groups. None have a good of ethics that I am aware. One of the large flaws of the IBT is they can place pilots in locals with truck drivers and other skilled workers that think pilots are prima donnas.

Also, ALPA has pilots representing pilots whereas the IBT has union reps who are IBT employees. Recall every ALPA elected rep sans the President is still employee of his airline. His income and success is tied his pilot group and airline.

When I hear stories about how AMR treats its pilots I am glad I am not APA. But that is me..

Rez is not ALPA, at least not the ALPA I know.

Recall when I asked you about your experience with ALPA.. meaning how well you understood ALPA and your volunteerism.. you were flippant and replied:

Committee work? Committe chair? Elected Rep?
I had a grievence filed against me by the IAM for taking a bag off the jetway and bringing it downstairs. How is that for experience?

​

I don't think your typical ALPA member violates the ALPA Code of Ethics so frequently by insulting or belittling other members of our profession, or shows outright disdain for military pilots when about 40% of ALPA is former military. I don't think the average ALPA member, or person for that matter, thinks you have to be in a union to be a professional.

Nice try... but epic fail again. In fact I've posted the CoE on this thread... so reach for it and show what canon I've violated. You've tried this weak argument before because it sounds witty. No one is forced to be on this message board. This message board and its moniker users is not the domain of an ALPA CBA. In short the CoE doesn't apply in cyberspace.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water or let one bad clown spoil the whole circus. ALPA members for the most part are professional, helpful and pragmatic, willing to work together with ALL pilots to improve our profession.

Committee work? Committe chair? Elected Rep?
I had a grievence filed against me by the IAM for taking a bag off the jetway and bringing it downstairs. How is that for experience?

​

Just like Skywest pilots don't like being called unprofessional for not living up to Rez's standards, ALPA members don't all like being lumped in with his kind of boorish behavior.

Not my standard.

Even the FAA states that a profession requires a code of ethics. Is the OO Creed the skywest pilots Code of Ethics? One of the big problems in organizations is the exclusion of the very people that are part of the group. For example, management will create this creed and tell OO pilots this is yours. You live it and be it. The problem is the OO pilots didn't create it. People can't expect to take ownership of something like this if they didn't create it. It is ridiculous. To have this creed crammed down and then be told you are professional is illogical.

Professionalism is a choice. Where is the choice here for OO pilots?

That being said Rez does bring up some valid points if you wade through his animus. I think things would be a lot easier on you guys with representation of some sort. I am sure ALPA will support your efforts even if you decide to go Teamsters or form your own association.

After having a grievance filed against you and then quitting the profession, you don't seem to be the right guy to speak to professionalism.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This post lists why you are not a professional. Seriously dude for once STFU. You are making all of ALPA look bad.

No. Actually OO, JB and VA are making the profession look bad.

It has been shown for over 80 years, that this profession requires ethics and representation. To take those gains and benefits earned and fought for over the years as your own and not maintain them is childish and irresponsible.

It also motivates management to down grade the profession to simply wage workers.

We are not supposed to belittle other members of our profession in this manner.

Let's be clear. You are not a member of the Air Line Pilot Profession. You quit and took and different path.

Neither are the OO, JB and VA pilots. Are you saying that OO pilots get to say no to representation and a CoE but still claim the benefits and call themselves professional?

How does that work? How does someone gain status without the effort?

Keep these kinds of comments to yourself, even if this is an anonymous message board, or better yet tell them to the Captain next time you try to jumpseat on Skywest or JetBlue.

The problem here is the definition and understanding of professionalism.

What is it? I can assure you that many Air Line Pilots both union and non union act professional but can't define or quantify it.

First off if we say that everyone is professional does that devalue the profession? For example, we've all called a company as a consumer and were put on hold only to hear "you're call is very important to us, please stay on the line, and one of our professional CSRs will be with you shortly" Are CSRs really professionals? What about gate agents? rampers? If they are, are they the same as professional pilots? If so, does that mean same pay is ok?

Are Skywest pilots really professional because management says so? Because management creates a creed for them? Are OO, JB and VA pilots professional because they say they are? Who is they? Are these pilot groups professional if one pilots defines professionalism as one way but another pilot says professionals is not that way but his way?


So what does it mean to the Air Line Pilot profession when OO, JB and VA pilots call themselves professionals after DAL, CAL, NWA, UAL, PAA, Braniff, etc. pilots have spent endless hours over the decades creating professional status so when it comes time for pay and benefits we have leverage at the table. And along comes OO, JB and VA pilots and say.. yeah, we are just like those guys.. we are professional too.

Many pilots on here are tired of weak leverage in negotiations. Do OO, JB and VA pilots help?

So what makes a professional? Can you define it?

 

[AirCobra]

IBT, APA or USAPA are not national unions connected internationally to other pilot groups. None have a good of ethics that I am aware. One of the large flaws of the IBT is they can place pilots in locals with truck drivers and other skilled workers that think pilots are prima donnas.

Also, ALPA has pilots representing pilots whereas the IBT has union reps who are IBT employees. Recall every ALPA elected rep sans the President is still employee of his airline. His income and success is tied his pilot group and airline.

When I hear stories about how AMR treats its pilots I am glad I am not APA. But that is me..

Recall when I asked you about your experience with ALPA.. meaning how well you understood ALPA and your volunteerism.. you were flippant and replied:

​

Nice try... but epic fail again. In fact I've posted the CoE on this thread... so reach for it and show what canon I've violated. You've tried this weak argument before because it sounds witty. No one is forced to be on this message board. This message board and its moniker users is not the domain of an ALPA CBA. In short the CoE doesn't apply in cyberspace.

​

Not my standard.

Even the FAA states that a profession requires a code of ethics. Is the OO Creed the skywest pilots Code of Ethics? One of the big problems in organizations is the exclusion of the very people that are part of the group. For example, management will create this creed and tell OO pilots this is yours. You live it and be it. The problem is the OO pilots didn't create it. People can't expect to take ownership of something like this if they didn't create it. It is ridiculous. To have this creed crammed down and then be told you are professional is illogical.

Professionalism is a choice. Where is the choice here for OO pilots?



After having a grievance filed against you and then quitting the profession, you don't seem to be the right guy to speak to professionalism.

Rez,
Disparaging other members of our profession by calling them unprofessional just because they do not have a union or the same union violates the ALPA code of ethics and I said as much before. If you are going back to old posts I already pointed this out to you. You are not helping anyone or raising the profile of our membership when you engage in this kind of petty behavior. I don't know why you feel the need to put so much time and effort into alienating people. It would be much better to do nothing in ALPA rather than displaying a complete and utter lack of professionalism

Interesting you feel so qualified to speak for our profession given the number of people telling you they wouldn't have anything to do with ALPA because of people like you. If your goal is to harm ALPA then I think you have shown you are imminently qualified to speak, otherwise you are doing much more harm than good.

Your posts are EPIC failures because not only are you insulting but no one knows WTF you are talking about when you equate professionalism with union membership. I think you are pretty much alone in thinking professional pilot means airline pilot represented by ALPA. I don't think all of your pilot jobs have been union so does that mean you were not a professional? Nor did I quit the profession. I still am a professional pilot just in a different segment of the industry, and took a job that was much better than the one I had in every respect. That is what professional pilots are supposed to do and why people go from CFI, to the regional's, and hopefully to a major? Isn't that what professionals do, improve their careers? SO quit playing the fool and making posts that discredit us all. No one wants the kind of leadership form ALPA you display here. Grow up already!

 

[AirCobra]

So what makes a professional? Can you define it?

Obviously being in ALPA and wearing a hat.

Let me ask you, when did you become professional? Was it only once you you joined ALPA? You mean all that DC-3 flying you were doing was un professional? What if you wound up at JB or SWA, would you then become unprofessional again since they are not ALPA? Get back to me when you can figure out what you are talking about.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Obviously being in ALPA and wearing a hat.

Look either you can define professionalism or you cannot. You are showing your inabilities....

Let me ask you, when did you become professional? Was it only once you you joined ALPA?

I became a professional when I gained a CoE (not a creed), representation both locally and nationally and I had a CBA to enforce my PIC/SIC authority. In other words I had the ability to look out for the public's interest and not be coerced into operating for only company profits

You mean all that DC-3 flying you were doing was un professional?

That is correct. The company I flew the 3 for was a joke and they went BK.

What if you wound up at JB or SWA, would you then become unprofessional again since they are not ALPA?

JB= unprofessional. How do JB pilots get to claim to be professionals without the effort, status and requirements? Isn't that what the Tim Martins failure was all about? He was something he was not. Is the ALPA CoE applicable to JB pilots? If so, why? If not, then what defines JB pilots as professional?

SWAPA = professional, although they do need a CoE as stated by the FAA.

Get back to me when you can figure out what you are talking about.

Still waiting for you to quantify professionalism. Can you define professionalism at your non airline job?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

As much as Skywest pilots look and act the part of professionals, they have no method to enforce it. Meaning they have no CBA and no ASAP program. OO pilots can talk the talk but they cannot walk the walk. Same with JB and VA pilots.

As the PIC I have been pushed by management to operate my jet counter to my professional instinct. However, I knew that with a CBA and ASAP that I would be protected. My CBA states that the PIC is the unquestioned authority on the aircraft. While the FARs also state that, and OO pilots might feel that is adequate protection... it is... when dealing with the FAA. However, your employment is something else... The FAA might be satisfied that you operated safely, but they do not care if you fly again and the Feds won't protect your paycheck.



Again, it has to do with the ability to tell a manager no, who is pushing you as PIC to operate against your desire for safety. In the end, when push comes to shove, Skywest pilots cannot do that.

Conduct and image is one a part of professionalism, but backing it up with a CBA, ASAP and the ability to influence federal law and policy is where the real professionals operate.

rez,
You may need a union to back your PIC, if that makes you feel secure, that is your lack of huevos showing. A true PIC exercises that authority in spite of any potential negative business consequences, regardless, safety is safety. I will do what ever I need to do to maintain safety and if it costs me my job, so be it, my passengers and most importantly, I will be safe, albeit unemployed.
Don't get me wrong, I would most definitely prefer a CBA, but you confuse some very basic concepts of safety and professionalism with union membership, those are your failings not mine. The "ability to influence federal law" is not a cornerstone of professionalism, it is merely the ability to buy a lobbyist. Your ranting and diatribes do far more damage and actually influence individuals in a negative fashion. Case in point, I would not want someone with your limited intelligence "advising" me on contracts, nor any number of "professional" issues, you and PCL are the poster boys for every thing that is wrong with ALPA, "form without function".
This is coming from an inactive ALPA member.
Do us all a favor and just remain silent, opening your digital mouth only proves you are an idiot.
PBR

 

[MONKEY]

well golly gee. I want to be a profeshunal, eye bettere vote fur ALPA.

 

[CFIT]

rez,
You may need a union to back your PIC, if that makes you feel secure, that is your lack of huevos showing. A true PIC exercises that authority in spite of any potential negative business consequences, regardless, safety is safety. I will do what ever I need to do to maintain safety and if it costs me my job, so be it, my passengers and most importantly, I will be safe, albeit unemployed.
Don't get me wrong, I would most definitely prefer a CBA, but you confuse some very basic concepts of safety and professionalism with union membership, those are your failings not mine. The "ability to influence federal law" is not a cornerstone of professionalism, it is merely the ability to buy a lobbyist. Your ranting and diatribes do far more damage and actually influence individuals in a negative fashion. Case in point, I would not want someone with your limited intelligence "advising" me on contracts, nor any number of "professional" issues, you and PCL are the poster boys for every thing that is wrong with ALPA, "form without function".
This is coming from an inactive ALPA member.
Do us all a favor and just remain silent, opening your digital mouth only proves you are an idiot.
PBR

PBR, very well said, I completely agree with everything you said.

Especially your last sentence!

Rez, it was richards like you that killed literally thousands of votes during the last drive, do everyone a favor and STFU.

 

[10nCLR]

pro·fes·sion·al

   ][pruh-fesh-uh-nl] [/COLOR][/URL][B][I]–adjective [/I][/B]

[COLOR=blue][B]1.[/B] following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: [I]a professional builder. [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]2.[/B] of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: [I]professional studies. [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]3.[/B] appropriate to a profession: [I]professional objectivity. [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]4.[/B] engaged in one of the learned professions: [I]A lawyer is a professional person. [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]5.[/B] following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: [I]a professional golfer. [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]6.[/B] making a business or constan[/COLOR][COLOR=blue]t practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: [I]“A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.” [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]7.[/B] undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: [I]professional baseball. [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]8.[/B] of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: [I]a professional apartment; professional equipment. [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]9.[/B] done by a professional; expert: [I]professional car repairs. [/I][/COLOR]


[COLOR=blue][B][I]–noun [/I][/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=blue][B]10.[/B] a person who belongs to one of the professions, esp. one of the learned professions. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]11.[/B] a person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs: [I]a golf professional. [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=blue][B]12.[/B] an expert player, as of golf or tennis, serving as a teacher, consultant, performer, or contestant; pro. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=red][COLOR=blue][B]13.[/B] a person who is expert at his or her work: [/COLOR][I][COLOR=blue]You can tell by her comments that this editor is a real [/COLOR][COLOR=blue]professional.[/COLOR] [/I][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#ff0000][B][COLOR=blue]14[/COLOR][/B][I][B][COLOR=blue].[/COLOR][/B] [/I][/COLOR][COLOR=blue]person prepared for work by extended study or practice[/COLOR]


[LEFT][B][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]Says nothing about being in a union to be a professional[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/LEFT]


[LEFT][SIZE=4][COLOR=red][B][SIZE=2][SIZE=4][U]Antonym[/U][/SIZE] of [I]noun[/I] professional[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][B][COLOR=red][SIZE=2][COLOR=black]amateur[/COLOR][/SIZE][/COLOR][/B][/SIZE][/LEFT]

[SIZE=4][COLOR=red][B][U]Antonyms[/U] [SIZE=2]of [I]adj[/I] professional[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]
[LEFT][COLOR=red][B][SIZE=2][COLOR=black][COLOR=red]1. nonprofessional (vs. professional)[/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR=red][COLOR=black][B][SIZE=2][I]amateur, recreational, unpaid [/I][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=red][/LEFT]
[B][SIZE=2][COLOR=red][I]2. [/I]unprofessional (vs. professional)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]
[LEFT][SIZE=2][COLOR=black][B]amateurish([COLOR=blue]rez o. lewshun[/COLOR]), amateur, rookie, greenhorn, [/B][B]unskilled.[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT]

[/COLOR][COLOR=blue]What was this post about again?[/COLOR][/SIZE]

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

rez,
You may need a union to back your PIC, if that makes you feel secure, that is your lack of huevos showing. A true PIC exercises that authority in spite of any potential negative business consequences, regardless, safety is safety. I will do what ever I need to do to maintain safety and if it costs me my job, so be it, my passengers and most importantly, I will be safe, albeit unemployed.

Not very good trade there. Why does it have to be a one or the other?

Don't get me wrong, I would most definitely prefer a CBA, but you confuse some very basic concepts of safety and professionalism with union membership, those are your failings not mine.

So explain the failings... as no one has been able to do... don't just say you disagree... actually reason your difference...

The "ability to influence federal law" is not a cornerstone of professionalism, it is merely the ability to buy a lobbyist.

Valid, but not having a lobbyist simply makes you an outsider and one who doesn't control their own profession..

Your ranting and diatribes do far more damage and actually influence individuals in a negative fashion. Case in point, I would not want someone with your limited intelligence "advising" me on contracts, nor any number of "professional" issues, you and PCL are the poster boys for every thing that is wrong with ALPA, "form without function".
This is coming from an inactive ALPA member.
Do us all a favor and just remain silent, opening your digital mouth only proves you are an idiot.
PBR

More of your professionalism?