Skywest No-Voters

[Dubya]

UAL Pilot: "So, what did you vote the other month? Was it for ALPA or not?"
SKW Pilot: "Well, I voted for the union that got you your concessions back. And your pension. And the one that made you a dick."

Oooh......

ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding

We have a winner! Bob, tell him what he's won!

 

[Morning Wood]

UAL Pilot: "So, what did you vote the other month? Was it for ALPA or not?"
SKW Pilot: "Well, I voted for the union that got you your concessions back. And your pension. And the one that made you a dick."

Oooh......

What concessions have the UAL pilots won back?

 

[WalterSobchak]

A union thread that is almost 20 hours old...and no regurgitated diatribe from Rez O. Lewshun?

I kid, I kid...

 

[Occam's Razor]

If it was brought up in an interview, I think that would be extremely unprofessional. To use the religion analogy again: Is it professional to ask someone's religious beliefs in an interview, and then base the decision on the answer? Same thing.

Not quite, bucko!

Agency Shop makes attitudes toward unions fair game in interviews.

I won't ask you about your yarmulke, turban, or pentagram tattoo...but if you follow-up your sincere "I can get along with everybody!" responses with an anti-union answer...you'll make the early flight back home.

 

[jea]

I wonder how unionized the population of Detroit was back in the day... looks like its done the local economy there really well- that filters down to familys well being...

 

[Caspian27]

I don't agree. If market forces alone were allowed to dictate our pay and QOL, just where do you think both would be?

The last wave of backsliding would've been much worse without the unions fighting for what the guys at the majors managed to keep.

I agree with you here. The last wave of backsliding could have been worse without unions. However, why did we have backsliding? An economic recession that had nothing to do with the unions. The current market was unable to support what we had then, so backsliding occurred.

I think you missed my point entirely. Even with a union as a bargaining agent, the market can only support what it can support. Your backsliding example showed this. All of the major airlines are are union represented, yet they all had to give concessions because of the current economic state. Pilot supply was high, but demand for flying was low. Something had to give, and many gave it. Would it have been worse without union bargaining and representation? Absolutely.

My point is that even with union representation, the union can only give us what the economy will allow.

 

[SKYWRJGUY]

Sorry, I thought somewhere on this post it said "a repost...and a good one"---I was mistaken. SOS...

 

[buscap]

For FI it's been rather high-brow and on point with little YERMOM type comments. So I stand behind my decision to repost.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A union thread that is almost 20 hours old...and no regurgitated diatribe from Rez O. Lewshun?

I kid, I kid...

nothing to say..what isn't already known.....

 

[waveflyer]

That's only so true

Buscap,

Pay and benefits are a reflection of the economics of supply and demand. Not unionism! Whether or not your company is unionized does not make recession go away or bring about a bull market. Having a union gives us a black and white contract and a bargaining representative to help us fight for better pay. But the better pay will only come if the current economic situation is able to sustain it. If many pilots are trying to get few jobs, pay will be lower. If there are many jobs and few pilots, pay will be higher.

This would be true if a pilot's career weren't governed by CBA's and seniority. Both of those interfere with the free hand of competition. (ie: instead of allowing weak companies to fold- major airline after major airline pilot group signed off on $$BILLIONS$$ in concessions rather than be the next Eastern or PanAm- Management knows this and uses it to their extreme advantage).

What you say should be true- but a trueer truism imp: is "you dont get what you're worth, you get what you negotiate."

Since 9/11 there has been explosive growth and constant hiring and movement throughout the regional industry, ie: lack of pilots- and yet NO regional saw raises that kept up with inflation- Why not? Again it's b/c as pilots I cannot use competition for my services to my advantage: ie: "Hi SkyWest, I have 8000 hours, 3 type ratings, 2500 TPIC, what can you offer me?" "Sure: We'd love to have you. Bottom of the list, 1st year poverty pay, worst schedules, less responsibility. When can you start?" It's not competition, and that's not a choice most of us can make once established at another competing airline. There ARE more jobs now than 6 years ago-- they have just grown from the regional sector... Does your theory hold up? Why couldn't SkyWest negotiate a pay raise during 5 years of explosive growth? It would appear to have been the time.

A more complete question: "IF SKYWEST COULDN'T NEGOTIATE A RAISE DURING THE LAST 5 YEARS, UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES COULD THEY?" How could you w/o the Self Help remedies entitled to you under the RLA.

One could assume that we are better off with unions- however w/ pay and QOL diminishing, we are approaching an area of pay/QOL where we don't know if that's true.

My argument: National List or get rid of seniority- become a guild/PAC and let us negotiate individually like other professions. Either way, make it possible and reasonable to be able to change companies w/o such severe penalties so that pilots can adjust to the dynamic airline marketplace.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My argument: National List or get rid of seniority- become a guild/PAC and let us negotiate individually like other professions. Either way, make it possible and reasonable to be able to change companies w/o such severe penalties so that pilots can adjust to the dynamic airline marketplace.

Provide a detailed plan of how this would work... not just one sentence...

HOW HOW HOW!!!!

 

[buscap]

Provide a detailed plan of how this would work... not just one sentence...

HOW HOW HOW!!!!

We moved toward unions in this industry to avoid this very situation. He forgot to mention the other side of the sword, such as what happens to said pilot during an industry downturn.

People forget the middle class in the US and Canada rose out of the prosperity we enjoyed, being the only "not bombed into the stone age" industrialized countries after WWII. Take the unions out of the picture and the prosperity would've all wound up in company profits. The middle class simply would not have been built.

 

[Caspian27]

We moved toward unions in this industry to avoid this very situation. He forgot to mention the other side of the sword, such as what happens to said pilot during an industry downturn.

People forget the middle class in the US and Canada rose out of the prosperity we enjoyed, being the only "not bombed into the stone age" industrialized countries after WWII. Take the unions out of the picture and the prosperity would've all wound up in company profits. The middle class simply would not have been built.

To play the devil's advocate with your example: Why is it that two of the most successful economies (other than ours) since WWII is Japan and Germany. Both of which we "bombed into the stone age" as you say. It seems to me like both of those countries have a prosperous middle-class.

Did we become pilots so we could join the union, or did we join the union because we became pilots? If everyone is so eager to unionize every pilot in America, then union members should try to actually become what the name "Union" means: Try to unify everyone with rational, logical arguments, not emotional responses such as yelling at them, kicking them off airplanes, telling them how dumb they are or responding with union dogma. We all have our opinions, and these people aren't stupid. The union people failed to convince them logically. You can't truly intimidate a smart person into joining a union. You have to win over their mind.

That is why I support my entire pilot group. Acceptance and acts of kindness go a lot farther than rude remarks or the canned "We are better than you" arguments.

My two cents.

 

[Formula 1]

Was that another credibility gap like the "pilot's wife letter" in the previous drive. You wouldn't really mislead would you?

What do you know Andy? My wife wrote that letter. I got ALPA to donate $10K for the Wilson Center to poll the entire pilot group. Not one Skypest pilot wanted to take that poll. Talk about lame. I even donated $2500 of my own money to make Skypest a better place. What did you do? You did nothing but complained.

Its just as well. My life is better now since I left Skypest. That was the final push I needed. This year I made more than a 18 year RJ Captain at Skypest and have more days off. I also get a 7.3 match on my 401k that started day one. In fact with profit sharing and my 401k with match, I have $23k towards retirement for this year alone. Sure beats that generous 4 percent match at 5 years with that crappy plan that was forced upon the pilot group. Maybe you should go ask a real senior pilot about that one. They lost a lot of money in transaction fees. Some lost more than $20K.

Don't you need to be teaching a class right now? Life must be good for you in cushy your 9-5 job in the training center. Real pilots fly the line. Stop hiding you pu$$y!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To play the devil's advocate with your example: Why is it that two of the most successful economies (other than ours) since WWII is Japan and Germany. Both of which we "bombed into the stone age" as you say. It seems to me like both of those countries have a prosperous middle-class.

Because of the US Marshall plan. After WWI the Versailles Treaty was unrealistic and propelled Germany and Europe into recession/depression...

In addition US Foreign policy agitated Japan by strangling it economically and pushing them to war.

After WWII the US formed the UN (a union basically) and ran the Marshall Plan and realized that the only way to prevent catatrosphic world war again was to build up the economies of the world to create trading partners...

call it global unionization

Did we become pilots so we could join the union, or did we join the union because we became pilots?

That is deep. I mean.... seriously...

But it shows you have no clue...

Do you think ALPA's agenda is driven by a bunch of dudes that pick whatever issues they want to play with... DO YOU THINK THIS IS A PHCUKING HOBBY FOR US!!!

The Agenda or the Association is real. See bullet points below...

If everyone is so eager to unionize every pilot in America, then union members should try to actually become what the name "Union" means: Try to unify everyone with rational, logical arguments, not emotional responses such as yelling at them, kicking them off airplanes, telling them how dumb they are or responding with union dogma.

Agreed. And those being courted to join pilot unions should repsond with rational arguements... not this... "Hey, I am at Skywest...I got mine now phcuk OFF! by the way thanks for letting us freeload As*&HOLE!"

Let's be clear... the SKYW pilots are screwing the profession tomorrow for the crumbs of today...

Don't act like the ALPA vote was a decision between McDonalds or Burger King... the SKYW pilots had a professional obligation to join ALPA.... and you rejected it... the message loud and clear!!

We all have our opinions, and these people aren't stupid. The union people failed to convince them logically. You can't truly intimidate a smart person into joining a union. You have to win over their mind.

Riddle me this smart guy:

The SKYW pilots pilots have benefited from ALPA doing this work...

• Contam Runway analysis
• Criminalization of pilots
• Are there FFDO pilots at OO?
• Runway Incursions
• Jumpseating
• NASMOD
• MANPADS
• IFALPA
• FMLA legislation reform
• UAL/DAL scope
• ALPA's standing observer status at ICAO
• BK legislation reform
• Open Skies/Foreign Control/Ownership
• Accident Investigation
• Congresstional Testimony

None of the above effects OO pilots? What do you think? yes/no?

When ALPA influnces legislation in Washington DC for the benefit of ALPA pilots.... do you think OO gain that benefit too? yes/no? Answer requested...

Don't tell me that most of the ALPA screwers at OO don't want to come over to ALPA represented properties. Even if you don't all of the above benefit OO pilots...

That is why I support my entire pilot group. Acceptance and acts of kindness go a lot farther than rude remarks or the canned "We are better than you" arguments.

We tried to be kind. We tried to reason with you.....to show logic.. but your selfish pilot group only care about themsleves...the right here right now... all while you freeload off our hard work... the hard work that we volunteer away from our families to make this profession better.

That is right I said profession. OO pilots are skilled hourly laborers.. Union pilots, lead by ALPA pilots, are professionals. We are because we make sacrifices for the betterment of the traveling public. You have no Code Of Ethics. See the bullet list above. Do the OO pilots make airline travel better for the public? No... you are in service of Jerry and the OO shareholders.. THAT IS IT.

If you want to make decisions in the best intrest of the public and your supervisor wants you to operate in the best intrest of the shareholders...guess who wins...

OO CAPT- "It is not safe to fly at this time"
OO CP- "Fly it or you are fired"


Let me guess... the FAA is here to help....

My two cents.

My 2%.........

 

[Caspian27]

Rez,

First, thanks for the history lesson.

I told you how I voted (in several different threads. I voted for ALPA, so you're "preaching" is to the choir. Sorry, but unionism isn't my religion like it appears to be yours.)

I understand all of the things that pilot unions have done over aviation history. But you couldn't even quote those to me without getting angry or agitated. It's not me you're trying to win over with your rants.

I think you proved my point.

 

[Andy Neill]

Don't you need to be teaching a class right now? Life must be good for you in cushy your 9-5 job in the training center. Real pilots fly the line. Stop hiding you pu$$y!

Yet another example of information that is in error. Why the name calling? Have I ever called you anything as derogatory or anyone else for that matter?

 

[Formula 1]

Yet another example of information that is in error. Why the name calling? Have I ever called you anything as derogatory or anyone else for that matter?

You call my wife's letter a lie. So you are first name caller. You back to your brazildoo.

 

[Andy Neill]

You call my wife's letter a lie. So you are first name caller. You back to your brazildoo.

It was my recollection that the pilot responsible for the "wife's letter" admitted it was a fabrication that was representative of a typical wife's concerns. If that is not the case, I withdraw the assertion. Do you?

Evidently, you are out of the grapevine at SkyWest, It's been over a year since I've been there. They probably wouldn't appreciate me flying their planes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

First, thanks for the history lesson.

Glad I could help...

I told you how I voted (in several different threads. I voted for ALPA, so you're "preaching" is to the choir. Sorry, but unionism isn't my religion like it appears to be yours.)

Religion.... no. The medium for my profession... yes. And that profession pays the house note, so I can live undera roof and feed my family. It helps the OO pilots too....

I understand all of the things that pilot unions have done over aviation history. But you couldn't even quote those to me without getting angry or agitated. It's not me you're trying to win over with your rants.

Fair enough.... how does one respond to apathy, indifference and ignorance as it erodes the profession? I think it is fair to see how one would get fustrated....

I think you proved my point.

And the OO pilots have too...