Skywest Lawsuit - Pilot wins!

[120% Torque]

Bottom line guys is that "so very tired" is NOT a pilot advocate. He bailed on that part of the profession. He sits behind his little computer with a disdain for pilots. He has even stated multiple times he doesn't give a rip about pilots, nor those on this board. He's just here gettting his jolleys tryin to stir the pot. I think most dont take him seriously anyway because they know he is as troll. At least he does use a little "truth in advertising" with his avatar..."I dont really have a solution to this".

 

[Soverytired]

Bottom line guys is that "so very tired" is NOT a pilot advocate. He bailed on that part of the profession. He sits behind his little computer with a disdain for pilots. He has even stated multiple times he doesn't give a rip about pilots, nor those on this board. He's just here gettting his jolleys tryin to stir the pot. I think most dont take him seriously anyway because they know he is as troll. At least he does use a little "truth in advertising" with his avatar..."I dont really have a solution to this".

Hey now, just because I think ALPA leaves a lot to be desired doesn't mean I hate pilots, or even unions, for that matter. I find the back and forth of these threads both interesting and educational. We're all limited by the breadth of our individual experiences; my exposure to ALPA was at Mesa, and I was underwhelmed.

I've heard great things about ALPA medical-issue reviews; it's a thread that universally comes up no matter where you go for information about ALPA. So, "Kudos".

However, my own experience with ALPA-legal years ago led me to start questioning the overall value of the organization; their performance at the legacy carriers and at Mesa in particular for the past decade led me to some new conclusions.

I don't have a "one size fits all" answer. If your carrier sucks (aka Mesa), a union is probably in order, be it ALPA or otherwise . . . but a better option is to go work for a better employer, cuz there's lots out there.

If your carrier is pretty good, there are downsides to having a union as well as some upsides. That's really all I'm suggesting.





BTW --- "Soverytired" was an avatar I came up with while working at my ALPA carrier of Mesa when I was forced to fly all night and sleep either in the back of an a/c or share a hotel room with 3 strangers. For YEARS. And yeah, I was pretty bitter that ALPA could do NOTHING about it, either on the local scheduling level or the national safety level. The things I've seen . . . holy crap!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Using your numbers, assume that 2% of 80k per year was invested in a tax sheltered 401 (k) that grew at 9% annually starting at age 30 and ending at age 65 (cuz we all know the age 65 rule is coming).


NO 2% Dues (you keep and invest): [SIZE=-1]$359,152

vs.

With 2% Dues (for ALPA) : $0


I don't disagree that ALPA may provide a legal service; clearly they do. But just like "free" Canadian health care, it ain't free.

You pay for it. Every. Single. Check. For your whole career, whether you use it or not.

I think the VAST majority of pilots will never need it, and would be better served if they used that money as they saw fit. Dumping it into ALPA coffers "just in case" seems a poor allocation of personal resources.

That 2% is a HUGE lost opportunity over the cost of a lifetime.




[/SIZE]

Hopefully it wasn't in Enron or UAL ESOP stock, or any other number of Wallstreet scams designed to part working folks from their money. I do like your creativity in finding new ways to spin your hate for ALPA. It is refreshing to see some creativity! Unlike xpoop, and skyfag you have traditional neocon repub spin abilities. I especially like your 401(k) estimates. Bottom line, a 2nd or 3rd year pilot wouldn't have the resources DD had, unless their parents coughed up their retirement nest egg. As far as the dues, its the cost of being in modern society and playing the game according rules we have. If you want maximum protection for your chosen career ALPA may be the only game in town, and for the SKYW guys like DD, SAPA didn't quite make the grade for him. I guess the old house, car and medical insurance are a waste of time too!
PBR

 

[120% Torque]

Hey now, just because I think ALPA leaves a lot to be desired doesn't mean I hate pilots, or even unions, for that matter. I find the back and forth of these threads both interesting and educational. We're all limited by the breadth of our individual experiences; my exposure to ALPA was at Mesa, and I was underwhelmed.

I've heard great things about ALPA medical-issue reviews; it's a thread that universally comes up no matter where you go for information about ALPA. So, "Kudos".

However, my own experience with ALPA-legal years ago led me to start questioning the overall value of the organization; their performance at the legacy carriers and at Mesa in particular for the past decade led me to some new conclusions.

I don't have a "one size fits all" answer. If your carrier sucks (aka Mesa), a union is probably in order, be it ALPA or otherwise . . . but a better option is to go work for a better employer, cuz there's lots out there.

If your carrier is pretty good, there are downsides to having a union as well as some upsides. That's really all I'm suggesting.





BTW --- "Soverytired" was an avatar I came up with while working at my ALPA carrier of Mesa when I was forced to fly all night and sleep either in the back of an a/c or share a hotel room with 3 strangers. For YEARS. And yeah, I was pretty bitter that ALPA could do NOTHING about it, either on the local scheduling level or the national safety level. The things I've seen . . . holy crap!

I also worked for Mesa. I knew Mesa before they had Alpa and after they had Alpa. Prior to Alpa on the property they were paying $14/flight hour. After, they were still on the low end of the spectrum but made big advancements from where they had been. Did you know Danny Knox? I dont know where he is today, hopefully didn't give up on his career. He was in charge of the B1900 program when I was there. He told me about a situation where he and his first officer where hung out to dry by the company on an FAA violation. He didn't have the funds to fight the battle and Alpa was not yet on the property. When I left he was worried about becoming a Mesa "lifer" because although extremely bright and a good pilot, nobody wanted to look at him with the blemish on his record. When he spoke to my new hire class he was very adament about the benefits of Alpa and how it had improved things and added protections to Mesa that previously werent there, almost at the risk of his director of training job. I got the feeling he really wanted to educate us young guys on what the worth of Alpa was and even though Mesa had "not the best management team" and was still trailing the industry due to said management, Alpa made a huge difference in transforming from where they had been. Danny had no ulterior motive in telling his story. Just a guy trying to educate and was willing to tell a somewhat embarrassing story to illustrate. I appreciated it and have not forgot about Danny. Hes a great guy. Do you know him? The product at Mesa will always suck as long as JO is in there but it could be MUCH MUCH worse. Were you there prior to Alpa being on the property?

PS- Skywest is quickly becoming the "new Mesa" soon followed by the "old Mesa". Sad but true.

 

[atrdriver]

Using your numbers, assume that 2% of 80k per year was invested in a tax sheltered 401 (k) that grew at 9% annually starting at age 30 and ending at age 65 (cuz we all know the age 65 rule is coming).


NO 2% Dues (you keep and invest): [SIZE=-1]$359,152

vs.

With 2% Dues (for ALPA) : $0


I don't disagree that ALPA may provide a legal service; clearly they do. But just like "free" Canadian health care, it ain't free.

You pay for it. Every. Single. Check. For your whole career, whether you use it or not.

I think the VAST majority of pilots will never need it, and would be better served if they used that money as they saw fit. Dumping it into ALPA coffers "just in case" seems a poor allocation of personal resources.

That 2% is a HUGE lost opportunity over the cost of a lifetime.

[/SIZE]

So you pay for life insurance? What about health? What about homeowners and auto? Why do you pay for those? Expecting to use them some day? Or hoping that you don't have to but knowing that they are there if you need them?

 

[atrdriver]

You'll note that I pick out "ALPA" . . I'm NOT anti-union, but after a decade of failure, I just can't believe ANYONE would go with that outfit.

A decade of failure? I don't think anyone was calling ALPA a failure in 2000 when they negotiated DALs and UALs huge contracts. Yes they had to give up some after 9/11, but how much more would have been lost without them?

 

[120% Torque]

So you pay for life insurance? What about health? What about homeowners and auto? Why do you pay for those? Expecting to use them some day? Or hoping that you don't have to but knowing that they are there if you need them?

I don't think soverytired believes in health insurance and all that waisted money business. His whole family is against the insurance concept. Oh sure his brother got cancer, racked up $400,000 in bills before he had to relent to the disease but that was an isloated case. It just doesn't happen to most people who exercise and eat well. Besides prior to his brother getting cancer he had invested the money that would have gone towards health insurance into stocks, 401K and some commodities. He was up $200k before that baazar and isolated case of cancer came up.

 

[120% Torque]

A decade of failure? I don't think anyone was calling ALPA a failure in 2000 when they negotiated DALs and UALs huge contracts. Yes they had to give up some after 9/11, but how much more would have been lost without them?

Even after 911, DAL still has some of the best work rules in the industry, all negotiated by Alpa.

- 5:15 daily guarantee for line holders
- DOUBLE PAY for inverse assignment
- Trip/Duty rigs
- Cost of living increases greater than COS Index (ie a third year 737 FO still has an hourly rate of $91+ per hour). A ways from where it used to be but nonetheless much better than a union free shop would have provided GUARANTEED!
- Profit sharing based on formulas that pay out big enough chunks of change (thousands each check) that actually kinda make the pilots feel they are sharing in the success unlike skywests riddled formula that amounts to a few bucks. This is further being diluted at skywest every day.

All the geniuses like sovertired try to write off what alpa has done. Do you think Delta management would have given these work rules out of the goodness of their hearts without Alpa bargaining for them?

Then there is the "look what those unions did for the major airlines after 911....nothing!" argument. Newsflash, BK changes the rules. Even then though much more would have been flushed down the toilet if Alpa wasn't daily involved in negotiating on behalf of the pilots. You can choose to ignore the facts or spin what information you have, at the end of the day, you get what you bargain for and if your bargaining agent is impotent or in bed with managment your ok job becomes less ok until it is barely worth doing anymore. Bottom line, Alpa, helps pilots help themselves. Be ignorant about it like soverytired or make the decision to educate yourself and take better control of your career. You decide.

 

[difete]

I dont get it. KB said he lost the lawsuit, but this article seems to say he won??

Im confused here. Did DD win at the end these last couple of days?

 

[Soverytired]

PS- Skywest is quickly becoming the "new Mesa" soon followed by the "old Mesa". Sad but true.

Thankfully, I wasn't there prior to ALPA being on the property. I heard the stories. LR could be a first class prick.

I wasn't aware that Skywest is becoming the "new Mesa-old Mesa model." If true, there are a bunch of Mesa fo's who must feel pretty foolish for giving up 3 years seniority to go work for another Mesa.

If it's true, then yep, Skywest needs a union. There's plenty of choices out there; why this board SCREAMS "Alpa only" is beyond me. I've seen the new TA for NetJets, and it seems the teamsters did an exemplary job for those pilots (for example)

 

[Soverytired]

I don't think soverytired believes in health insurance and all that waisted money business. His whole family is against the insurance concept. . . .He was up $200k before that baazar and isolated case of cancer came up.

No, I believe in health insurance, though probably not like you do (HSA's rock!). And I believe in choice and most importantly in VALUE.

I think ALPA is inefficient and over-priced for the services they offer. I also believe they're ineffective.

And their corporate overhead is outrageous. Over 120 officers pulling in over $100k. Plus their last secretary strike purportedly was settled quickly by forking $$$ to way-overpaid phone monkeys.

There is only one service that ALPA is truly superior at . . . . Medical appeals. There's no comparable expertise and service available out there. There is short & long term disability insurance (which I have), but to get your ticket back, ALPA is very good.

Not so good that I'd vote them on the property just for this reason alone though.

 

[PCL_128]

Plus their last secretary strike purportedly was settled quickly by forking $$$ to way-overpaid phone monkeys.

Perhaps you should spend some time with these so-called "phone monkeys" and see what they really do for you before you go off attacking them. You're completely clueless.

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

So very tired.

Wait till you have a health issue.
Not all of us are so lucky to have zero issues our entire career.

 

[obadie]

What happened to the hilarious conversation between PBR and XPOO. Great entertainment.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

What happened to the hilarious conversation between PBR and XPOO. Great entertainment.

He is out having his tater checked, all that time in the bath houses, he goes to while using his travel benefits has got him worried. I am voting for a$$ cancer, AIDS takes too long!
PBR

 

[Russ]

"why this board SCREAMS "Alpa only" is beyond me"

We tried an independant union (UPA) in 2004 and the drive failed. A number of pilots who were pro union in thier leanings voted no because they doubted a small unions ability to cope with a 800 pound gorrilla that is SGU.

 

[rtmcfi]

There's plenty of choices out there; why this board SCREAMS "Alpa only" is beyond me. I've seen the new TA for NetJets, and it seems the teamsters did an exemplary job for those pilots (for example)

Simple math

2% of regional wages is a pittance compared to 2% of bizjet wages.

 

[Poahi]

I have my beefs with ALPA, but some of you guys need to remember that because of ALPA, you are alive and able to complain. ALPA started because pilots were dying and their companies didn't do enough about it.
TCAS, emergency exit lighting, ATC safeguards and the list goes on. Before you continue bashing ALPA, ask yourself what have some of these 'in house' unions done to make flying safer?

 

[Skywest Pylot]

I have my beefs with ALPA, but some of you guys need to remember that because of ALPA, you are alive and able to complain. ALPA started because pilots were dying and their companies didn't do enough about it.
TCAS, emergency exit lighting, ATC safeguards and the list goes on. Before you continue bashing ALPA, ask yourself what have some of these 'in house' unions done to make flying safer?

Good points. I am trying to think about what contributions SAPA has made to the safety of our industry.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

I really enjoy jumping back and forth between the Crj200, 700 and 900 all in one day. I didn't want to fly the 700 or the 900 but when SAPA did a 180 I was forced to train on both. Being juniormanned into doing the Aspen flights in the 700 has been a good deal too. I guess SAPA really is looking out for me and my safety. (note the sarcasm)

 

[pilotmyf]

All your NASA are belong to us.

What?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Good points. I am trying to think about what contributions SAPA has made to the safety of our industry.

They got us the "red" snack box in exchange for 11hr days filled with 24 minute turns and no breaks. Wait?
contributions? none!
PBR

 

[Nevets]

I apoligize if this has already been said before but its important to know that ALPA legal would have defended this pilot all the way to federal court with no out of pocket expenses to him.

In my humble opinion, one of biggest benefits to any standard ALPA contract is the Resolution of Disputes section. This is the part that spells out the grievance process.

If such a contract was in place when this pilot was first contacted about this issue, an ALPA rep would have been made available to him. And if management decided to terminate him, he would be able to grieve it. And if management still wanted to terminate him, he would be able to send it to a NEUTRAL arbitrator. If management disregarded the arbitrator's decision, ALPA would have represented this pilot in federal court like they did for two TSA pilots.

U.S. District Court Upholds ALPA Arbitration Awards
Gives two Trans States pilots the green light to fly after wrongful terminations

​

ST. LOUIS – In a recently issued ruling, the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri ordered Trans States Airlines (TSA) to comply with two arbitration awards that had ordered the reinstatement of two wrongfully terminated TSA pilots.


The pilots were represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA). The Court found that the arbitration awards “drew their essence from the collective bargaining agreement between ALPA and Trans States Airlines.”


“This court ruling is vindication for our two pilots who found themselves caught in the crosshairs of an anti-union management team,” said ALPA President Capt. John Prater. “We hope TSA management will take this ruling to heart and realize it has a legal responsibility to abide by arbitrators’ rulings and to comply with our contract.”


In March 2006, an arbitrator ruled that Trans States’ termination of Capt. Srjdan “Sergio” Cvetanovic was without just cause. The arbitrator directed Trans States management to reinstate Cvetanovic and pay him the majority of his lost earning and associated benefits. When Trans States refused to honor the arbitrator’s decision, ALPA filed suit in the U.S. District Court to have the arbitrator’s ruling enforced.


In March 2005, TSA terminated Capt. Paul Hopkins, a St. Louis-based ALPA representative. In May 2006, an arbitrator ordered Hopkins be reinstated with back wages and lost benefits. Trans States refused to honor this arbitrator’s decision as well, so ALPA also filed suit on behalf of Hopkins.


“We are very pleased the magistrate upheld the arbitrations,” said Capt. Jason Ruszin, chairman of the Trans States pilots’ branch of ALPA. “It is now time for the Company to comply with these awards by reinstating these pilots. If management wishes to improve labor relations they should accept this outcome and reinstate the pilots without further delay. Continuing to challenge these awards in federal appeals court would only serve to deepen the wedge between management and labor.”


In addition to Cvetanovic and Hopkins, TSA terminated four other union officials in 2005 in an effort to undermine the union. TSA management’s anti-union campaign proved to be a complete failure. Through ALPA’s efforts, three of the four officials were reinstated in the grievance process. The other pilot, who obtained a better flying job elsewhere, reached a satisfactory settlement. Cvetanovic and Hopkins were the only two still off the property.

 

[NJAPLT]

"why this board SCREAMS "Alpa only" is beyond me"

We tried an independent union (UPA) in 2004 and the drive failed. A number of pilots who were pro union in their leanings voted no because they doubted a small unions ability to cope with a 800 pound gorilla that is SGU.

I've been with 2 teamsters outfits, Great Lakes (Local 747) and NetJets (Local 1108.) I paid my dues for over five years at Great Lakes, and never received any value for my union dues. Management fired at will, committed flagrant antiunion activity including firing the great lakes union president (due to his on-time performance for one month, according to the company.)

I was not around when the Local 284 (I hope I got the number right) was in control of the Netjets Pilots union, but from what I hear from pilots who were on property then was not good. The Local 284 was actually thrown out by the pilot group in favor of the Strong Union participants and the local 1108 was formed. This also solidified the pilot group as a whole into providing a situation where the company chose to finally pay a professional pilot a professional salary.

I would give credit for the CBA 2005, and the IBB 2007 (if it passes) not to the Teamsters officials in DC or wherever the national headquarters is, but to the officials at the 1108 in Columbus, OH, the Strong Union officials, and most importantly my fellow pilots.

I don't know how much alpa (national) controls the specific bargaining group (company specific pilots and union officials) but in my experience with two teamsters airlines, the local bargaining group and local union officials had much more to do with receiving a fair contract or not than any executive "national" union official.

For the record, I am just a 2 year pilot with no union role whatsoever except being a normal union member in good standing, so I may be missing what the national teamsters does, except for filling my mailbox with junk mail. Current rumors do state that the local 1108 is considering becoming independent of the IBT, but I have no knowledge of any plan to do so.

 

[Morning Wood]

I apoligize if this has already been said before but its important to know that ALPA legal would have defended this pilot all the way to federal court with no out of pocket expenses to him.

In my humble opinion, one of biggest benefits to any standard ALPA contract is the Resolution of Disputes section. This is the part that spells out the grievance process.

If such a contract was in place when this pilot was first contacted about this issue, an ALPA rep would have been made available to him. And if management decided to terminate him, he would be able to grieve it. And if management still wanted to terminate him, he would be able to send it to a NEUTRAL arbitrator. If management disregarded the arbitrator's decision, ALPA would have represented this pilot in federal court like they did for two TSA pilots.

U.S. District Court Upholds ALPA Arbitration Awards
Gives two Trans States pilots the green light to fly after wrongful terminations​

ST. LOUIS – In a recently issued ruling, the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri ordered Trans States Airlines (TSA) to comply with two arbitration awards that had ordered the reinstatement of two wrongfully terminated TSA pilots.


The pilots were represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA). The Court found that the arbitration awards “drew their essence from the collective bargaining agreement between ALPA and Trans States Airlines.”


“This court ruling is vindication for our two pilots who found themselves caught in the crosshairs of an anti-union management team,” said ALPA President Capt. John Prater. “We hope TSA management will take this ruling to heart and realize it has a legal responsibility to abide by arbitrators’ rulings and to comply with our contract.”


In March 2006, an arbitrator ruled that Trans States’ termination of Capt. Srjdan “Sergio” Cvetanovic was without just cause. The arbitrator directed Trans States management to reinstate Cvetanovic and pay him the majority of his lost earning and associated benefits. When Trans States refused to honor the arbitrator’s decision, ALPA filed suit in the U.S. District Court to have the arbitrator’s ruling enforced.


In March 2005, TSA terminated Capt. Paul Hopkins, a St. Louis-based ALPA representative. In May 2006, an arbitrator ordered Hopkins be reinstated with back wages and lost benefits. Trans States refused to honor this arbitrator’s decision as well, so ALPA also filed suit on behalf of Hopkins.


“We are very pleased the magistrate upheld the arbitrations,” said Capt. Jason Ruszin, chairman of the Trans States pilots’ branch of ALPA. “It is now time for the Company to comply with these awards by reinstating these pilots. If management wishes to improve labor relations they should accept this outcome and reinstate the pilots without further delay. Continuing to challenge these awards in federal appeals court would only serve to deepen the wedge between management and labor.”


In addition to Cvetanovic and Hopkins, TSA terminated four other union officials in 2005 in an effort to undermine the union. TSA management’s anti-union campaign proved to be a complete failure. Through ALPA’s efforts, three of the four officials were reinstated in the grievance process. The other pilot, who obtained a better flying job elsewhere, reached a satisfactory settlement. Cvetanovic and Hopkins were the only two still off the property.

What were these guys fired for? Also, can TSA now appeal this ruling or is this over? I do find it rather interesting that this case has dragged for almost the same amount of time that Don's case has.

 

[Nevets]

What were these guys fired for? Also, can TSA now appeal this ruling or is this over? I do find it rather interesting that this case has dragged for almost the same amount of time that Don's case has.

I don't know why they were fired. But a neutral arbitrator decided that it was without "just cause." TSA can appeal the ruling to the appeals court, then the full appellate court, then the supreme court.

 

[Texx]

I don't know why they were fired. But a neutral arbitrator decided that it was without "just cause." TSA can appeal the ruling to the appeals court, then the full appellate court, then the supreme court.

Very, very few judges will eevn hear a case where both parties have agreed to binding arbitration. As long as the Arbitrator did do anything crazy, it's a no go from the courts. Judges don't like getting involved with arbitrators rulings.

 

[Nevets]

Very, very few judges will eevn hear a case where both parties have agreed to binding arbitration. As long as the Arbitrator did do anything crazy, it's a no go from the courts. Judges don't like getting involved with arbitrators rulings.

The court already heard the case and rendered judgment. The court was NOT ruling on the merits of the case. The suit was filed by ALPA because binding arbitration was being ignored by TSA.