SkyWest airplane in the mud in peoria

[WayBack]

WayBack, I can tell you are lost and in need of some guidance. As a fellow FI member and someone who now sees the light, I would like to take this opportunity to spread the "word"...

You're kidding right?

Originally Posted by Nevets
Just because you are a professional, does not mean you wont make mistakes. The difference is that if you are a member of an airline union, you will be defended by a dispute clause that is legally enforced through the RLA by virtue of being recognized by the NMB. Otherwise you end of like DD having to defend yourself using thousands of dollars out of pocket with no guarantee you will get that money back.

I have worked for non-union carrier. I have done the carpet dance. It's never cost me a penny. I have known several people who have gone infront of the chopping block at non-union carrier. It's never cost them a penny.
Now, the times were you really mess up and need a lawyer...well, maybe it's best you be terminated because your royally screwed up and don't belong in the cockpit.

 

[ePilot22]

You're kidding right?

I am. Sorry Nevets.




eP.

 

[WayBack]

Why is that?

Because it's in ALPA's nature to agree to paycuts. Not to mention the 2% you lose for a crappy magazine.
Look at all the airlines who took paycuts in the last 10yrs. All ALPA.
Who is furloughing pilots now? All ALPA carrier, the non-ALPA carriers aren't furloughing.

I guess that goes under their motto of "Live to Fight Another Day".

 

[WayBack]

Yeah the non union airlines just take away health benefits, pay and pretty much anything they want.
PBR

Really? Airline management has their way molesting ALPA and it's pilot groups, and there is nothing ALPA/pilots can do about it.

ALPA needs to update their pamphlet they're handing out to you, because you guys have a false sense of what ALPA is and what ALPA can't do.

 

[Lear70]

And yes, I've gone back and removed the other attacks as well.

Clear is right, NO MORE PERSONAL ATTACKS or we're just gonna lock the thread and send all the offenders off to think about it for a week...

 

[Nevets]

You're kidding right?


I have worked for non-union carrier. I have done the carpet dance. It's never cost me a penny. I have known several people who have gone infront of the chopping block at non-union carrier. It's never cost them a penny.
Now, the times were you really mess up and need a lawyer...well, maybe it's best you be terminated because your royally screwed up and don't belong in the cockpit.

Its not just about carpet dances. Everyone deserves due process.

Because it's in ALPA's nature to agree to paycuts. Not to mention the 2% you lose for a crappy magazine.
Look at all the airlines who took paycuts in the last 10yrs. All ALPA.
Who is furloughing pilots now? All ALPA carrier, the non-ALPA carriers aren't furloughing.

I guess that goes under their motto of "Live to Fight Another Day".

It is not in ALPA's nature to agree to any pay cuts. You make it seem like ALPA wants all pilots to suffer indefinitely. You simply don't make sense. In one post you mention how ALPA will defend every pilot regardless (even though every pilot deserves due process anyways) because they don't want to lose dues money and in the same breadth say that they take pay cuts. How do you reconcile those type of statements when clearly taking concessions for all pilots costs more in dues money than the occasional pilot that gets fired?

Really? Airline management has their way molesting ALPA and it's pilot groups, and there is nothing ALPA/pilots can do about it.

ALPA needs to update their pamphlet they're handing out to you, because you guys have a false sense of what ALPA is and what ALPA can't do.

Who says there is nothing ALPA can do about it? Its just that ALPA is not God and can't just make all pilots get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars overnight. There is clearly in expectations issue here. ALPA and management have to operate in the same set of rules spelled out in the RLA.

 

[WayBack]

Its not just about carpet dances. Everyone deserves due process.

The ones who need Due Process are the ones who royally messed up. I looked for it, but can't find it. I forget the fine details, but the jist of it was a regional crew preformed a go-around in NY, either JFK or LGA. The captain was at the controls and either stalled or got the shaker/pusher and froze up. Passengers and the FA's could hear the FO yelling at him to do something. If I remember correctly when he did gain control, he put it in a steep bank, maybe possibly got the shaker a second time, not exactly sure since it's been a while.
But it was such an abrupt situation that the tower even saw the airplane was in serious trouble. I think they might have even declared an emergency for them.
Point of the story, the airline fired the guy even thought they had ASAP on the property. But the airline watched the FDR and CVR and saw it was grounds enough to terminate him. The last I heard, ALPA is fighting for his job back....trying to put a guy back in the cockpit who doesn't belong there and has proved it. I understand the ASAP program, but sometimes you have to admit when it's time to cut ties with someone. What if this guys back and now put that RJ into the ground? I hope ALPA can defend on why they thought he deserved to be in the cockpit again after almost crashing another airplane.

Who says there is nothing ALPA can do about it? Its just that ALPA is not God and can't just make all pilots get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars overnight. There is clearly in expectations issue here. ALPA and management have to operate in the same set of rules spelled out in the RLA.

It's not just referring to dollars. ALPA drops the ball on a lot of things, wrongful terminations (Not talking about the guy above) failure to follow through on contract agreements.....Wait, there is one for you. I have a friend at an ALPA carrier. In their contract they're able to get one year of personal leave. The company told him no, and he has yet to hear from any of his rep's despite a number of emails, and when he did get an email from a rep he was told that he's working on his case and might have a solution, but can't promise than he can get the full 1 year for him (then why is it in the contract? How about "Some personal time, if at all")...but hasn't hear from him in 3 weeks. It should be a no brainer, since his wife has becoming extremely ill, and he's been taking care of the kids, working another job to pay the bills while he's not flying. He's been on FMLA but it's about to run out. ALPA reps have been "working" on this since he went out on FMLA.
And to think this isn't the only case like this. It's not the first and it's not the last. Rep's don't even have the power to hold management to the contract they agreed on.

Now I sit and await your defense as to why ALPA can't get this taken care of. I'm sure I'll hear "Well, there is more to it than what you see. A lot of it happens behind the scenes" or how it's not as cut and clear as you think it is. Make all the excuses you want, it's just another foul up by ALPA.

 

[Nevets]

The ones who need Due Process are the ones who royally messed up. I looked for it, but can't find it. I forget the fine details, but the jist of it was a regional crew preformed a go-around in NY, either JFK or LGA. The captain was at the controls and either stalled or got the shaker/pusher and froze up. Passengers and the FA's could hear the FO yelling at him to do something. If I remember correctly when he did gain control, he put it in a steep bank, maybe possibly got the shaker a second time, not exactly sure since it's been a while.
But it was such an abrupt situation that the tower even saw the airplane was in serious trouble. I think they might have even declared an emergency for them.
Point of the story, the airline fired the guy even thought they had ASAP on the property. But the airline watched the FDR and CVR and saw it was grounds enough to terminate him. The last I heard, ALPA is fighting for his job back....trying to put a guy back in the cockpit who doesn't belong there and has proved it. I understand the ASAP program, but sometimes you have to admit when it's time to cut ties with someone. What if this guys back and now put that RJ into the ground? I hope ALPA can defend on why they thought he deserved to be in the cockpit again after almost crashing another airplane.

Seeing that this was ASAPed, maybe due process wasn't followed. I honestly don't know. ALPA should make the company fire these guys only after the due process negotiated for and afforded to the pilot are followed. That does not mean that the guy doesn't deserve to get fired.

It's not just referring to dollars. ALPA drops the ball on a lot of things, wrongful terminations (Not talking about the guy above) failure to follow through on contract agreements.....Wait, there is one for you. I have a friend at an ALPA carrier. In their contract they're able to get one year of personal leave. The company told him no, and he has yet to hear from any of his rep's despite a number of emails, and when he did get an email from a rep he was told that he's working on his case and might have a solution, but can't promise than he can get the full 1 year for him (then why is it in the contract? How about "Some personal time, if at all")...but hasn't hear from him in 3 weeks. It should be a no brainer, since his wife has becoming extremely ill, and he's been taking care of the kids, working another job to pay the bills while he's not flying. He's been on FMLA but it's about to run out. ALPA reps have been "working" on this since he went out on FMLA.
And to think this isn't the only case like this. It's not the first and it's not the last. Rep's don't even have the power to hold management to the contract they agreed on.

Now I sit and await your defense as to why ALPA can't get this taken care of. I'm sure I'll hear "Well, there is more to it than what you see. A lot of it happens behind the scenes" or how it's not as cut and clear as you think it is. Make all the excuses you want, it's just another foul up by ALPA.

It seems like a lot of your problems with ALPA come from hearsay. I remember having a pilot tell me about his buddy getting screwed over as well. I wont get into all the details because it'll take too much time. But suffice it to say that when I picked up the phone and called the MEC chairman to get the scoop, it wasn't what it was made up to be.

But regardless, even if what you heard is true, it doesn't make ALPA the bad guy you make it out to be. Maybe the guy has a bad rep. The fact that the company doesn't want to honor a contractual agreement is proof that ALPA is needed there to begin with because they sure as hell wouldn't give it to him without a contractual obligation. Look, there are some bad or lazy people runnign the show sometimes but that does not mean that what ALPA's goals and intents are bad.

Many times its these bad experiences that push people into trying to so something good. We need more people like that helping out ALPA. But unfortunatly many times these experiences will push people the other way and they become disillusioned with ALPA, or to just complain. I honestly feel that the character of the individual is what makes the difference in what direction people take.

 

[WayBack]

But regardless, even if what you heard is true, it doesn't make ALPA the bad guy you make it out to be. Maybe the guy has a bad rep. The fact that the company doesn't want to honor a contractual agreement is proof that ALPA is needed there to begin with because they sure as hell wouldn't give it to him without a contractual obligation. Look, there are some bad or lazy people runnign the show sometimes but that does not mean that what ALPA's goals and intents are bad.
.

You're right, he has a horrible rap. He's a bad person for taking care of his wife and family. Bastard!
So since the company isn't going to honor the contract, that's why they need ALPA there, since ALPA has done nothing for the guy either? That makes sense. So not only is the company not going to help you out, but neither is ALPA.
So not only do you have to watch you back from the company, you have to watch out from ALPA trying to bend you over as well. And you're paying 2% for that.

 

[Nevets]

You're right, he has a horrible rap. He's a bad person for taking care of his wife and family. Bastard!
So since the company isn't going to honor the contract, that's why they need ALPA there, since ALPA has done nothing for the guy either? That makes sense. So not only is the company not going to help you out, but neither is ALPA.
So not only do you have to watch you back from the company, you have to watch out from ALPA trying to bend you over as well. And you're paying 2% for that.

Ok, is this sarcasm?