Skywest Aircraft Transfer--Let the Games Begin

[Erlanger]

And to add to Dave Benjamin's post;

ASA pilots, not just from SLC but from ATL are applying at Skywest in many numbers. Several of them are going through class now and there are many more jumping ship. I don't think there are any Skywest pilots running over to ASA. Maybe you can answer as to why that is.

 

[outtahere]

If SkyWest pilots are flying for a "much reduced price" as you claim why are so many ASA pilots saying they want what SkyWest pilots are getting?

I'm confused. Help me out here with an explanation.

First of all only a few want what you guys have, and that would only be your 50 seat pay. So you guys take our higher paying 70's to make the same thing you make flying a 50. Our 70 rate is higher than your 50 rate. Clear now?

 

[sweptback]

And to add to Dave Benjamin's post;

ASA pilots, not just from SLC but from ATL are applying at Skywest in many numbers. Several of them are going through class now and there are many more jumping ship. I don't think there are any Skywest pilots running over to ASA. Maybe you can answer as to why that is.

We got it, you love your airline and JA and bow down to him every day. You don't continuously need to kick dirt in the faces of ASA pilots.

ASA pilots didn't ask for SkyWest to purchase us, just like how SkyWest pilots didn't ask for ASA to be purchased. However now that it has happened, the only logical thing to do is work together to make this place a better place to work at and to protect BOTH of our jobs. Just because one works for a specific airline under the umbrella does not make that pilot more important than the other.

To answer your question, ASA pilots are bailing for SkyWest because of the total screwjob that we have been getting since we were bought. We're trying to warn you guys that once our contract is settled, for better of worse, you guys are next. The airplanes that will be/have been transferred can easily be transferred back when your management decides that you guys are the target. If you don't want to believe that it will happen, that's fine, but don't say we didn't warn you guys. If we work together, it won't be an issue. I can't speak for everybody, but that's all I want... not your captain slots (except the ones generated by -EV/-AS tailed airplanes), or West coast bases, but one pilot list so no SkyWest pilot has to go through what we're going through now.

 

[txpilot1974]

Fck Skywest! Shut this b!tch down and lets go find a better job. Skywest guys, enjoy flying our airplanes at a much reduced price you freaking losers.

Unbelievable.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

First of all only a few want what you guys have, and that would only be your 50 seat pay. So you guys take our higher paying 70's to make the same thing you make flying a 50. Our 70 rate is higher than your 50 rate. Clear now?

If your 50 seat rates were brought up to match SKYW rates do you think the average ASA 50 seat captain would earn more or less than a SKYW RJ captain with same amount of time with the company?

Do you think the average ASA 70 seat captain makes more than the average SKYW RJ captain with same amount of time with the company?

How do the guarantees and rigs compare?

Are hourly rates more important than what shows up on a W-2?

Hypothetically speaking do you think ASA pilots would vote to approve a TA that was a carbon copy of SKYW pay and work rules to include bonuses?

 

[Crash Pad]

First of all only a few want what you guys have, and that would only be your 50 seat pay. So you guys take our higher paying 70's to make the same thing you make flying a 50. Our 70 rate is higher than your 50 rate. Clear now?

Actually I would take the whole package. Several of my FO friends on the EMB120 make more than I do as a 70 FO at ASA.

Yeah they fly for one rate. That rate is more than ASA makes across the board. Our 70 Captains make less than there 50 Captains. Once you understand that you will understand that this is about busting the Union.

 

[outtahere]

Exactly how do you think that a 50 seat captain at Skywest is making more than a 70 seat captain at ASA? If we get the rigs needed and the pay stays the same our guys will make far better. Lets compare W2's on total compensation for our 70 guys and yours. Secondly, do any ASA pilots trust our mangement with bonous'? I don't. Give me a solid paycheck that I can depend on, then if you want to give me a bonus great, but not in lew of pay. In my opinion thats what a bonus is, extra money on top of your pay. Don't get me wrong, you Skywest guys have it good for now, but just wait, Jerry will have his way with you soon enough. Like you all said, he is a businessman, and good business in the airlines to control labor costs is whipsaw. Get ready!

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Exactly how do you think that a 50 seat captain at Skywest is making more than a 70 seat captain at ASA? If we get the rigs needed and the pay stays the same our guys will make far better. Lets compare W2's on total compensation for our 70 guys and yours.

Can ASA RJ captains end up crediting well in excess of 1000 hours per year thanks to guarantees/rigs? That's where the difference comes into play. I've seen guys who really work the system credit in excess of 120 hours practically every month. Obviously they can't fly that many hours.

A 10 year 70 seat captain at ASA is making 81/hour less 2% for dues. So that's just shy of 80/hour. A SKYW RJ captain is making 74/hour plus a bonus which is obviously not a guaranteed part of income. Using 5% as a baseline though we come up with close to 78/hour. So if rigs or guarantees provide an additional 4% in credit hours the SKYW guy is coming out ahead. I'm not sure if ASA pilots have a 423 plan but SKYW pilots who wish to participate are guranteed a 15% ROI on up to 15% of their income. Depending on the market sometimes the ROI is way up in the 60-80% range. For an 80K a year guy that additional income is close to 2 grand and can be much more.

Factor in the difference in 50 seat pay and where does the group sit as a whole? I think 70 seat pay is closer than you think when all factors are considered and you're way behind in 50 seat pay. Nobody has seen a scale increase in years and both pilot groups need to make more money. Both pilot groups are working under long expired terms. It will be interesting to see how the situation is resolved. ASA pilots have the advantage of being able to legally withdraw their services at some point whereas all SKYW pilots can do is hope a bone gets thrown their way.

My point is simply that I don't think you're taking everything into account when you claim that SKYW pilots are working at largely reduced rates.

 

[viper01]

Here we go AGAIN...my johnson is bigger than your johnson. (W2's for the slow viewers).

 

[Tomct]

And to add to Dave Benjamin's post;

ASA pilots, not just from SLC but from ATL are applying at Skywest in many numbers. Several of them are going through class now and there are many more jumping ship. I don't think there are any Skywest pilots running over to ASA. Maybe you can answer as to why that is.

Ah....to vote in the union with a 50.1%! Make Sense?

 

[John Pennekamp]

Very well said Jeger. You've seen this show played out before on another property that had a great contract. Some are only interested in Pyrrhic victories.

Hey "Joe" since you're so sure ASA is going to be shut down maybe you and your buddies should quit and go to Skywest. At least you'll be senior to all of us when ASA folds and/or gets stapled. Go ahead, put your money where your mouth is. You do stand behind your rhetoric, right?

 

[John Pennekamp]

The solution to all of our problems is Skywest signing in a union. Sure you guys have it great now over there, but once we get hosed you will be next. You bastards better hope and pray that we hit one out of the ball park or JA will be down your throat next and pulling at your purse strings. Its not that I dislike you guys, but the time has come to stand up and be counted or face the consequenses later. As for us at ASA, in my opinion I hope we get everything we are asking for. If that causes us to shrink then so be it, but I will not sell out. Hopefully atleast 50.1% of the rest of you feel the same way. Now back to your regularly scheduled b!tch session.

No, the solution to all our problems is for the ASA pilot group to rise up and snap to action. ALPA is a gun without bullets, and this is why we haven't had a contract in 4 years. Pilot apathy is huge here. Everybody is still doing everybody else's job. Pilots are still flying broken airplanes. Pilots are in the crew lounge and on the internet whining about ALPA. Management sees this stuff. Why would they settle, they're not feeling any pressure.

It's time to put the pressure on them. Talk to those of us who were here in '98 in the crew lounge. ASA asked to resume negotiations a week after we got parked, then settled because the pilots shut this place down.

We will not get a contract until management feels the heat. When will the pilots begin to back the negotiating committee?

It's time for ASA pilots to get off our a$$es and participate!!!!

 

[av8er2]

I recently spoke with a SW Capt. on the 50 who has been there 2.5 years. He told me what he made and about how much his bonus is a year.

With some quick math I figured he made a little more than a 6 year Capt. at ASA. This is not even with the rigs.

I see no reason for them to keep ASA. I think they will tease ASA every-now and then with the thought that the contract is close. They want to drag this out for a long time because they can take the aircraft under the old contract.

You know the new contract will have scope and that means that mgt. won't finish it. Why would they limit their options? ASA has a terrible reputation, why would they keep it?

It would be so much easier to just start over with a fresh group of do-anything new hires that haven't been burned by ASA mgt. Then SW will have growth for years to come with happy pilots who think they have a future.

So to sum it up: Do you really think SW will

1. Give ASA a good fair pay raise, better than SW piliots?
2. Give ASA scoope that will not allow SW mgt. to transfer planes to threaten each pilot group?

Uhh......NO!

 

[www.]

It's time to put the pressure on them. Talk to those of us who were here in '98 in the crew lounge. ASA asked to resume negotiations a week after we got parked, then settled because the pilots shut this place down.

It's time for ASA pilots to get off our a$$es and participate!!!!

I agree to a point.

You speak about last time. Last time the opener was put out to the pilots prior to neg.

Just the Facts began running 1 year prior to neg. This was an important tool to "educate" the pilot group on a wide range of ideas, info and issues. It kept the pilots informed on what was actually taking place at the table.

Then there was the road shows to show the pilots what had been accomplished.

The reason we were successful the last time was that pilots didn't have to look for information. It was at their finger tips.

Why do you think the pilots were alive the last negotiations. Because they were in the middle of it. Not on the outside looking in.

 

[Skaff]

If your 50 seat rates were brought up to match SKYW rates do you think the average ASA 50 seat captain would earn more or less than a SKYW RJ captain with same amount of time with the company?

Do you think the average ASA 70 seat captain makes more than the average SKYW RJ captain with same amount of time with the company?

How do the guarantees and rigs compare?

Are hourly rates more important than what shows up on a W-2?

Hypothetically speaking do you think ASA pilots would vote to approve a TA that was a carbon copy of SKYW pay and work rules to include bonuses?

Two months ago, I blocked 55 hours and got paid 110. Not the norm, but better than most.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I agree to a point.

You speak about last time. Last time the opener was put out to the pilots prior to neg.

Just the Facts began running 1 year prior to neg. This was an important tool to "educate" the pilot group on a wide range of ideas, info and issues. It kept the pilots informed on what was actually taking place at the table.

Then there was the road shows to show the pilots what had been accomplished.

The reason we were successful the last time was that pilots didn't have to look for information. It was at their finger tips.

Why do you think the pilots were alive the last negotiations. Because they were in the middle of it. Not on the outside looking in.

Everything you say is true, but it still does not excuse pilot apathy. It is not too late, and our pilots would have to be living in a cave or on full time flight pay loss not to know what's going on. We need to take this company back, starting today.

 

[outtahere]

How many times has mgmt brought ALPA into a meeting and had them sign confidentiality statements to prevent them form going to the masses with their bs. Everything ALPA is asking for is out in the open, its posted in the crewroom, on the internet, and they send out constant emails trying to inform. The problem is most people don't look for it, and only care occasionally.

In regards to to hurting ASA, our ontime performance for the month of July was 45% according to the latest DOT reports, I would say that hurts.

 

[John Pennekamp]

How many times has mgmt brought ALPA into a meeting and had them sign confidentiality statements to prevent them form going to the masses with their bs. Everything ALPA is asking for is out in the open, its posted in the crewroom, on the internet, and they send out constant emails trying to inform. The problem is most people don't look for it, and only care occasionally.

In regards to to hurting ASA, our ontime performance for the month of July was 45% according to the latest DOT reports, I would say that hurts.

According to an MEC member, every time management asked them to sign confidentiality agreements, they failed to share any information that wasn't already public knowledge. Anything substantial was very vague and highly redacted. To date, ALPA has not seen the actual Delta-Skywest-ASA codeshare agreement ("cost box") and it's doubtful they ever will.

That doesn't have much impact on pilot apathy, though. You're exactly right about most pilots only care occasionally. Thery want to get on message boards and whine for hours that ALPA never tells them anything, yet won't take 15 minutes to visit the MEC web site and get informed, or call a rep. Until our pilots get motivated to take charge, we will not get a contract.

Everybody wants to blame ALPA. Every member is ALPA, not just the reps. We only have ourselves to blame

 

[ASADriver]

That doesn't have much impact on pilot apathy, though. You're exactly right about most pilots only care occasionally. Thery want to get on message boards and whine for hours that ALPA never tells them anything, yet won't take 15 minutes to visit the MEC web site and get informed, or call a rep. Until our pilots get motivated to take charge, we will not get a contract.

Everybody wants to blame ALPA. Every member is ALPA, not just the reps. We only have ourselves to blame

I can't believe your going to blame this on the ASA pilots. ALPA isn't at fault - the line pilots are. Listen to ALPA they know what is best, and it's all our fault. So when good things happen it is thanks to ALPA, and when bad things happen it is the line pilots fault. Maybe this type of thinking is why ALPA support is falling.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I can't believe your going to blame this on the ASA pilots. ALPA isn't at fault - the line pilots are. Listen to ALPA they know what is best, and it's all our fault. So when good things happen it is thanks to ALPA, and when bad things happen it is the line pilots fault. Maybe this type of thinking is why ALPA support is falling.

And what have YOU done to get a contract? ALPA is a gun without bullets. The bullets are the pilots backing the MEC up. With no support, management will never take the union seriously.

 

[asapilot]

I can't believe your going to blame this on the ASA pilots. ALPA isn't at fault - the line pilots are. Listen to ALPA they know what is best, and it's all our fault. So when good things happen it is thanks to ALPA, and when bad things happen it is the line pilots fault. Maybe this type of thinking is why ALPA support is falling.

To quote from Billy Madison(with a slight change):

Mr. ASADriver, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."



Mr. ASADriver, have you not yet realized that you are an army of one? You want what you feel you deserve, yet you don't want to put any effort into getting it. You expect little and value yourself even less if you feel this is a fight not worth taking on. I will fight for a fair contract because I believe every ASA pilot, even those like you, deserves better than what we get. As was stated above by someone else, you and every other member are ALPA so if ALPA fails, you shoulder some of the blame. You have a choice to put something into ALPA or stand in its way. Unfortunately for you, 90+% of us will walk over you to get what is fair and what is right. You have a problem with ALPA? Make your voice heard to the reps and the CNC. I don't see you posting any of these concerns on the ALPA boards where your fellow ALPA members can see your true colors.

You are a vocal minority who is an embarassment to your fellow pilots.

 

[AuburnRedneck9]

Speedtape,

Why don't you stop just trying to stir it up and spend your time demonstrating some difinitive action like ALPA legal getting involved. Name calling, idle threats and these little picketing games are not working, nor will they ever work. Our MEC needs to get with it and start on a tougher road to a contract. If not then the MEC is just as much to blame, if not more so than our general pilot group for this disaster.

 

[www.]

How many times has mgmt brought ALPA into a meeting and had them sign confidentiality statements to prevent them form going to the masses with their bs. Everything ALPA is asking for is out in the open, its posted in the crewroom, on the internet, and they send out constant emails trying to inform. The problem is most people don't look for it, and only care occasionally.

After looking at your bio, I would say you were not here during the last contract run. If you were not, you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Bizjet]

I can't believe your going to blame this on the ASA pilots. ALPA isn't at fault - the line pilots are. Listen to ALPA they know what is best, and it's all our fault. So when good things happen it is thanks to ALPA, and when bad things happen it is the line pilots fault. Maybe this type of thinking is why ALPA support is falling.

The support for ALPA is not falling it is actually at its highest level over the past 4 years. Just because your whinny little weak a$$ doesn't support the union is no real loss. You are an embarrassment to the pilot profession. Crawl back in you hole at the GO Dilbert! Why don't you bake some cookies and then go shopping with the girls while the rest of us carry your weak a$$ to a better contract. :smash:

 

[ASADriver]

And what have YOU done to get a contract? ALPA is a gun without bullets. The bullets are the pilots backing the MEC up. With no support, management will never take the union seriously.

1. I have 1.95% of my pay taken to support ALPA and collective bargaining.

2. I have participated in informational picketing - I won't anymore.

3. I have talked to ALPA people about negotiations.

4. I have participated in Wilson polling.

5. I have gone to LEC meetings.

6. I read everthing ALPA sends me or emails me.

7. I visit the ALPA website.

What more do you want me to do? I think ALPA is asking for too much. Times have changed and the industry has changed. I don't want a paycut, but then I don't think we have to take a cut. I also don't expect a big raise. Blaming all this on the line pilots confirms my displeasure with ALPA.

 

[ASADriver]

To quote from Billy Madison(with a slight change):

Mr. ASADriver, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."



Mr. ASADriver, have you not yet realized that you are an army of one? You want what you feel you deserve, yet you don't want to put any effort into getting it. You expect little and value yourself even less if you feel this is a fight not worth taking on. I will fight for a fair contract because I believe every ASA pilot, even those like you, deserves better than what we get. As was stated above by someone else, you and every other member are ALPA so if ALPA fails, you shoulder some of the blame. You have a choice to put something into ALPA or stand in its way. Unfortunately for you, 90+% of us will walk over you to get what is fair and what is right. You have a problem with ALPA? Make your voice heard to the reps and the CNC. I don't see you posting any of these concerns on the ALPA boards where your fellow ALPA members can see your true colors.

You are a vocal minority who is an embarassment to your fellow pilots.

I don't "feel I deserve anything". I am looking at the industry and the current situation and quite frankly I think ALPA has set it's sites too high.

 

[ASADriver]

The support for ALPA is not falling it is actually at its highest level over the past 4 years. Just because your whinny little weak a$$ doesn't support the union is no real loss. You are an embarrassment to the pilot profession. Crawl back in you hole at the GO Dilbert! Why don't you bake some cookies and then go shopping with the girls while the rest of us carry your weak a$$ to a better contract. :smash:

Then why is John Pennekamp blaming the ASA pilots for us not having a new contract. If it is at the highest level, then why blame the ASA pilots?

 

[CFIT]

Ah....to vote in the union with a 50.1%! Make Sense?

I've talked with quite a few former ASA pilots that have come to SkyWest and not one has had anything good to say about ALPA. One former ASA pilot stated that he would probably stay at Skywest to retirement but will quit if ALPA is voted in.

But they are all wrong I suppose, huh Tomclit?

 

[ASADriver]

I've talked with quite a few former ASA pilots that have come to SkyWest and not one has had anything good to say about ALPA. One former ASA pilot stated that he would probably stay at Skywest to retirement but will quit if ALPA is voted in.

But they are all wrong I suppose, huh Tomclit?

There are a lot of ALPA flag wavers here at ASA that are starting to talk bad about ALPA. ALPA told them not to worry about our assets being transferred. Now that they are being transferred, they are starting to question ALPA. What good is a union if it can't protect your job?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

There are a lot of ALPA flag wavers here at ASA that are starting to talk bad about ALPA. ALPA told them not to worry about our assets being transferred. Now that they are being transferred, they are starting to question ALPA. What good is a union if it can't protect your job?

Go get another job if this one's not working out for you. I'm working on my resume, as are most people. Tell me, it is the handful of DUIs or the kiddie porn charge that is keeping you from applying elsewhere?