Skybus Toast

[CA1900]

There's a big difference between GIA and other training programs: unsuspecting passengers are brought along for the ride, and they don't know that there's a student pilot in the cockpit when they buy the ticket.

When an apprentice cuts your hair or a high school auto shop fixes your car, you're fully aware, and you get a significant discount for the risk. With GIA, you buy a ticket on Continental and, unless you're in this industry, you have no idea that the copilots for this airline are paying customers.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There's a big difference between GIA and other training programs: unsuspecting passengers are brought along for the ride, and they don't know that there's a student pilot in the cockpit when they buy the ticket.

A "student" fully qualified and approved by the FAA.

When an apprentice cuts your hair or a high school auto shop fixes your car, you're fully aware, and you get a significant discount for the risk. With GIA, you buy a ticket on Continental and, unless you're in this industry, you have no idea that the copilots for this airline are paying customers.

Not unlike the co-pilots during the golden age of the Airlines...

Not unlike interns in the ER.


Not unlike the MPL pilots we will see in the next few years: low time, young pilots with Shiney WideBody Jet Syndrome, willing to sit right seat in a Boeing for 25K a year....

The question is...how will we treat them? Will we treat them as second class B scale pilots, thus allowing management to play us against each other?

 

[rtmcfi]

However, if you look at GA as a training program and not a job.... granted GA right seat pilots are performing work... much like ab initio programs globally.

But take your example and compare it to the 1990's when pilots paid 10K to work at ACA, Express Jet, Pinnacle, etc... Are those guys scabish? And of course what about SWA?

Those "pilots" are paying to occupy a seat that they should be getting paid for. This allows GA a competitive advantage in the marketplace. This forces other airlines to lower their compensation to compete. This ultimately depresses pilot wages. You already knew all of this though.....

The difference between now and the 1990's is that there are other options now. I am not defending the practice of the 1990's, as there were other options even then. GA, and it's current PFT swine are particularly repugnant now, as there are so many other options.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

However, if you look at GA as a training program and not a job.... granted GA right seat pilots are performing work... much like ab initio programs globally. And what of the new MPL? How are we going to treat those guys? (basically MPL will do for Airbus and Boeing operators what Gulfstream does for BE-1900's.... 300 hour pilots flying Airbus and Boeing... )

But take your example and compare it to the 1990's when pilots paid 10K to work at ACA, Express Jet, Pinnacle, etc... Are those guys scabish? And of course what about SWA?

Gulfstream is not a training program. You must have a commercial pilot's license to start there so this is not the same as an ab initio program starting from scratch. Even if it were, if I'm not mistaken, pilots from other areas in the world do not pay 30 grand for such programs. There are plenty of airlines in recent times hiring at very low hours that you have to interview at, but you actually get paid, not pay into. So comparing recent times to the 1990s is not a good comparison at all. Those airlines that had pay for training still required passing an interview. You didn't just buy your job outright.

 

[PCL_128]

Those airlines that had pay for training still required passing an interview. You didn't just buy your job outright.

I don't know how it works at GIA now, but it used to be that you had to pass a simulator ride and a written test to get hired as a PFT FO at GIA. About a quarter of the applicants didn't make it to class. No different than an interview process.

 

[PCL_128]

There's a big difference between GIA and other training programs: unsuspecting passengers are brought along for the ride, and they don't know that there's a student pilot in the cockpit when they buy the ticket.

When an apprentice cuts your hair or a high school auto shop fixes your car, you're fully aware, and you get a significant discount for the risk. With GIA, you buy a ticket on Continental and, unless you're in this industry, you have no idea that the copilots for this airline are paying customers.

The PFT pilots at GIA aren't "student pilots." They have the same number of hours that many students at the RJ operators have nowadays. I used to fly with plenty of 250-500 hour pilots at PCL. No different than what GIA is getting. The GIA pilots have to pass 121 training just like any other pilot, the only difference is that they're paying for it instead of the airline.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

The question is...how will we treat them? Will we treat them as second class B scale pilots, thus allowing management to play us against each other?

There are always going to be completely selfish unethical real estate agents who will stop at nothing to achieve the highest pay check. Just like certain CEOs (Mesa CEO Jonathon Ornstein). I'm sure there will always be a few scumbags in this profession with the same absolute mentality as evidenced by the super scabs of the past who took a job away from someone on strike. The rest of us are human with at least some thought to others instead of taking extreme shortcuts. So the more shameful Skybus or Gulfstream is viewed, the less likely future pilots will be willing to make a similar step and the better off this profession.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

The PFT pilots at GIA aren't "student pilots." They have the same number of hours that many students at the RJ operators have nowadays. I used to fly with plenty of 250-500 hour pilots at PCL. No different than what GIA is getting. The GIA pilots have to pass 121 training just like any other pilot, the only difference is that they're paying for it instead of the airline.

Not the only difference; they are paying to pass an interview process. Interviewing which involves explaining your strengths and weaknesses is a very humbling experience. I think that is a huge distinction. At the excessive price of 30 grand (what the heck), that appears to be way out there in the ethical department.

 

[PCL_128]

Interviewing which involves explaining your strengths and weaknesses is a very humbling experience.

Not really. Does anyone truly give honest answers to those questions, anyway? It's all BS. Kit Darby makes a fortune by telling people how to BS their way through interviews.

At the excessive price of 30 grand (what the heck), that appears to be way out there in the ethical department.

Hey, I'm not arguing in favor of the 'stream, I'm just saying that throwing the pilots under the bus isn't a wise move. Thousands upon thousands of pilots have PFTed in the last two decades. Most of them are at majors now and are your union brothers. Some of them are union reps. Does it really make sense to attack them and alienate them for the rest of their careers for a mistake they made when they were newbies? That's up to you to decide.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The question is are the M3's (moniker messageboard minority) having an effect? Is the Hatin' workin'?

Where are GIA hopefuls? There are in high school and college. To hate the GIA alumni is counterproductive...

Perhaps the FI contingency should put together a picket at GIA headquarters!