Skybus the Latest

[Bob_Sacamano]

You cannot be serious. They had an absolutely atrocious idea AND their product sucked. Skybus didn't deserve to make it. Paying barely above the poverty level for newhires, charging the price of 2 Happy Meals for a ticket, flying into podunk airports 60 miles away from the cities they advertise, cancelling tons of flights and not re-booking on other airlines. Yeah, great product...

I do wish the employees and their families the best.

I was really hoping Skybus was going to make it. They had a good idea and product but just couldnn't get it to work for them in the face of 100 dollar oil. My best of wishes for their employees and families.

 

[climbhappy]

i think airtran would never have made it had vaulejet not crashed. valuejet had a great idea. undercut delta at the businest airport in the world. that's why they're there today. jetblue , again , in the biggest market, most densely populated area... good idea.

fly to columbus, greensboro, st augustine, no way.

growing a business when cost spiral out of control... that's what killed them.

 

[Sir Innocenti]

No, they didn't. They had a substandard product with substandard customer service.

They had jam-packed seating tighter than any other carrier: 156 pax on a plane 12 feet shorter than JetBlue's 150-pax A320. They didn't have jetways to keep the customers warm and dry -- it was a real treat watching one of their first flights get delayed because it took them half an hour to get a handicapped customer on board. And good luck getting any sleep, with the entire flight being a non-stop sales pitch, because the $9/hr flight attendants can't survive without commissions. And if you have a problem? Good luck. Send an e-mail. There's nobody to call for help.



And the market spoke: we don't want EasyJet here.

Couldnt have summed it up any better! A real piss poor product!

 

[Soverytired]

Competition is a good thing.

Competition is a good thing for the traveling passenger. Drives down fares, give more options, etc.

A MONOPOLY is a good thing for pilots, at least those who are already employed by a 121 carrier, anyway. Jack the sh!t out of ticket prices and tell the flying to piss off if they don't like it.

"Good" is really a value judgment, and like most value judgments, there are very few unqualified "good" or "evil/bad" values. Eye of the beholder, from a certain point of view, and all that.

 

[AirCobra]

RTMCFI,

The pilots at United did not outsource or trade away their flying, management did and there were plenty of guys flying SAAB's to take those jobs in shiny new RJ's. The jokes on regional pilots now. They took away so much mainline flying most can't advance to a major anymore. Look around, Northwest stopped hiring, Compass is still going strong. Did you notice the regional jets keep getting bigger, yet pay stays the same. Like I said before, I understand why it happened but I hate to see hypocrisy. Skybus tried something a lot of other airlines tried and failed, how you can blame the pilots is beyond me. What does an A-319 seat 120-130? So someone flying an 100 seat RJ on a route that used to be flown by a 737 or DC-9, making $22 and hour is not undercutting anyone, but if you add 20 more seats, that pilot is the scum of the earth? I fail to see the logic.

 

[rtmcfi]

The pilots at United did not outsource or trade away their flying, management did and there were plenty of guys flying SAAB's to take those jobs in shiny new RJ's. The jokes on regional pilots now.

Management had willing accomplices....the pilots. United pilots had a scope clause. They relaxed it to allow RJs. Jokes on everyone that is not left seat in a widebody. Lots of mainline guys furloughed, lots of regional guys stuck at the regionals.

Did you notice the regional jets keep getting bigger

Yep, cause mainline guys keep folding like a cheap card table when it comes to scope. I think that is changing now....I hope.

 

[AirCobra]

The shift to 40% United's of domestic flying going to regional airlines was done with aircraft with seating capacities that met scope seating capacity agreement. Then United management brought in Skywest, a non-union carrier and later added Go Jet to further cloud the scope agreements. Relaxing of the scope clause was done while hundreds of United pilots were still on furlough so what barganing chip did they really have? Also did you forget the RJDC which worked only to reduce the number of jobs at mainline carriers and likely had no effect on regional pay. This is simply a matter of airline management outsourcing pilot labor plain and simple. The scope argument is BS because United and every other major would just fly more smaller RJ's and ERJ's if a stronger scope was in place.

 

[flyboyike]

Again, compass was created by NWA. The pilots (foolishly I think) traded away those airframes.

Either that or they gave themselves somewhere to flow back to while staying in the red-tail "happy family". On second thought, that might be foolish too.

 

[HA25]

As someone furloughed from a legacy myself, and someone who has constantly blamed RJ's and poor scope clauses for my problems, I think it merits my reposting post I made from another thread:

If you think you understand the Skybus pilot, you probably don't.

Pilots are their own worse enemy.

As for Skybus pilots.. I see guys here and other places running us down as losers and guys who couldn't get hired elsewhere..

the truth:

I'm one of the lightweights I knew at skybus.. in my short time there, I had the pleasure of flying with seasoned captains from Delta, Northwest, American / TWA, USAir, Emery, Ryan International (he was #1 when he left), ATA, various Air National Guard Fighter, C130, C17, and Tanker unit guys, and many Independence Air veterans (mostly very senior), The average guy had between 15000-20000, the low timer over 5000 and at least a check airman on the RJ and at least one if not three of four airline careers behind them in many cases, and in one case 10 airlines (not by choice).... yes, we were losers, but not as airman or pilots, only in the fact that we timed our careers and picked our airlines without the benefit of hind sight incorrectly. Yes, and the few low time RJ guys were hired too, and from what I could see all but a small handful were smitten by flying an Airbus.. Most of us flew bigger and faster jets before.. it was the chance to be a part of something new with the promise of being like those Southwest founders... rich with stock that lured many of us.

.. we weren't a bunch of whores like people who just love to hate want to portray, we were mostly like the guys you fly with... I can't speak well enough of the caliber of the average skybus pilot I knew.. as good as anyone I've seen at ASA, American, or Gemini..

Lastly, while we all fight with each other here the real problem, hedge fund managers, and airline CEO's with no real desire to run airlines but who are more interested in making money for themselves in the short run are the real problem.

This is why it didn't take long for the guys at Skybus to get an 80% card count for the IBT to represent us inside of 1 year from the day we began operations. We weren't a bunch of kids with shiny jet syndrome.. we were airline pilots trying to make best by our families.

I specifically can recall one of the guys, who was with Ryan International for 20+ years had cashed in his 401K and moved his family.. he had adopted his grand children as their step daughter was not able to care for them.. straddled with the cost of the move, and a $47,000 tax bill for closing out his 401K, he is now facing bankruptcy with no job.. If you revel in this, you're satan himself.

I can stand the heat... go on flame.

 

[Capt.LongThrust]

FMS,

I made a similar post on another Skybus thread. Although I have no dog in this hunt so to speak, I do see a common theme among pilots. When pilots realize that it is us against them then the profession might improve. The fact remains WE are ALL PILOTS. PERIOD. I don't give a $HIT what you fly or who you fly for. This bull$hit of cheering the shutdown of an airline makes me cringe. Until some of these a$$holes actually experience a shutdown they will never learn what it is like.

 

[skiandsurf]

A very good post. You are right, that timing is everything. Some people have it, some people dont. None of us is any better then the next guy, just luckier (or unlucky).

 

[motch]

Please..
Stop with this "We are all Pilots"

If someone gets hired with less time than you based on their sex or gender.. are we all pilots?
If someone is given a slot to be a military pilot based on their race and the timing where "we need to boost or number of miniorities with the military" are we all pilots?*
If someone who is a Capt of a major cargo carrier and is at the same time sexually molesting children.. are we all pilots?

Yes, as pilots we all want to get to our dream job.. flying the schedules we want in great equipment and great pay. Problem is.. there are many pilots who are willing to do it within the 'rules' of the game and then there are oppurtunists who jump at the chance to screw over their fellow pilots to cut ahead of the line.

Are some ex Skybus pilots people who just had a bad deal in their career.. sure.
But there were others who were using it to get ahead of others for the pain of bad pay/bad QOL for a short time.

I never said I was happy that the Skybus pilots are out of a job. Last I heard.. there's still a pilot shortage in the Regional world so they shouldn't have any problem getting a job. What I did say and will still say..
I'm glad that Skybus went under. They were luring pilots with dreams of Get Rich Quick based on stock options.
They would have made it harder for the rest of the industry to raise the bar at the next contract time.

Even the poster who says he was ex skybus says that the real problem is the hedge fund managers and CEO's... well.. it takes pilots to buy into an idea that doesn't make sense to begin with!
I blame the CEO and his board for comming up with this idea.
I blame the Hedge Fund Mangagers for funding an idea like this.
I blame the pilots who went over there with the idea of getting rich quick.

motch

*Happened to me.. and that pilot who was selected based on his race is now in Federal Prison for Drug charges! He is not a pilot like me or you~

 

[NAAPilot]

deleted

 

[NAAPilot]

How about an end to the "holier than thou" attitude from some of you guys, especially the regional airline pilots. Skybus is the culprit for driving down wages? How about TSA, Skywest, and Mesa. When I left United for a corporate gig, regional airlines were doing 40% of United domestic flying. Routes flown by A-319's and 737's with 4000 hour pilots making $60-70k were taken over by guys flying ERJ's and RJ's making $20-30K. So for someone at a regional airline to single out pilots who just lost there job and to gloat is both sad and unprofessional.

Am I bitter? No. I understand ecomics and this being the price we pay for a free market. It seems some of you hate any kind of competition for your job but are more than willing to fly for an airline that can get you ahead at a cost to someone else.

I still would like someone to explain how TSA taking flying away from mainline United was totally okay, but GO Jet taking flying away from TSA was not. How about Skywest? Non-union airline taking away flying from a union airline.

When Northwest parks its DC-9's who do you think takes over that flying? Probably Compass who pays way less than Northwest. Where are the anti-Compass threads? My bet is there aren't any because you guys are all trying to get jobs there, so you can fly an E-Jet for 10 more bucks an hour.

I can go on. About once a month I fly the same US Airways Flight. It has always been a 737. Guess what, its now Shuttle America.

So before you laugh at the demise of other pilots, or plan on having a fight in a St. Louis parking lot, first look at the plank in your own eye before pointing at the speck in your brothers eye.

This about sums it up...Very well said.

 

[ultrarunner]

NOT EVERYBODY WINS THE LOTTERY AND GETS ON WITH Fedex, Airtran, Southwest or UPS. Bottomline, you have to take what is available and take care of your family.

Man, you got it backwards....

...taking care of your family means NOT taking what is avaialble....


...but taking a job that gives "some" assurance that the bills can be paid. Even if it is NOT what you WANT to do...

Skybus offered NO ASSURANCES of any kind...it was just a pipe-dream experiment....actually it was more like an abortion.

 

[motch]

I still would like someone to explain how TSA taking flying away from mainline United was totally okay, but GO Jet taking flying away from TSA was not. How about Skywest? Non-union airline taking away flying from a union airline.

I'll bite..
United management DID NOT start Trans States Airlines with the goal of getting around the United Pilots CBA.
GoJet was started, in part.. to get around paying the Trans States Pilots the wages that our CBA stated would apply to newer aricraft that didn't have a payscale within the current CBA. At the time, the language of the contract stated that if the company and the union could not come to an agreement for a payscale, then we would use the average of all carriers flying such equipment MINUS the highest and the lowest payscale.
Trans States 'Holding' decided to start GoJet to use a lower payscale.

As far as stealing United flying.. we (I was at TSA) replaced some of the routes that were flown by ACA and other RJ carriers.
Yes, we also replaced a few mainline routes. But again, we did that as a known carrier.. not a startup. And we did it as part as an agreement between UAL Management and UAL ALPA. United downsized some of the mainline flying with RJ's. Never did ALAP UAL or NATIONAL advise any ALPA member to not fly this work. ALPA NATIONAL did come out and tell pilots and the industry what GoJet was about.

motch

 

[AKAAB]

I read this when I was a kid and it keeps coming to mind when I see how we are so eager to wish for the demise of other airlines. If you can ignore the religious context and see the underlying message, maybe it will help remind you of the big picture.

The War Prayer

by Mark Twain

It was a time of great and exalting excitement. The country was up in arms, the war was on, in every breast burned the holy fire of patriotism; the drums were beating, the bands playing, the toy pistols popping, the bunched firecrackers hissing and spluttering; on every hand and far down the receding and fading spread of roofs and balconies a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun; daily the young volunteers marched down the wide avenue gay and fine in their new uniforms, the proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheering them with voices choked with happy emotion as they swung by; nightly the packed mass meetings listened, panting, to patriot oratory which stirred the deepest deeps of their hearts, and which they interrupted at briefest intervals with cyclones of applause, the tears running down their cheeks the while; in the churches the pastors preached devotion to flag and country, and invoked the God of Battles beseeching His aid in our good cause in outpourings of fervid eloquence which moved every listener. It was indeed a glad and gracious time, and the half dozen rash spirits that ventured to disapprove of the war and cast a doubt upon its righteousness straightway got such a stern and angry warning that for their personal safety's sake they quickly shrank out of sight and offended no more in that way.
Sunday morning came -- next day the battalions would leave for the front; the church was filled; the volunteers were there, their young faces alight with martial dreams -- visions of the stern advance, the gathering momentum, the rushing charge, the flashing sabers, the flight of the foe, the tumult, the enveloping smoke, the fierce pursuit, the surrender! Then home from the war, bronzed heroes, welcomed, adored, submerged in golden seas of glory! With the volunteers sat their dear ones, proud, happy, and envied by the neighbors and friends who had no sons and brothers to send forth to the field of honor, there to win for the flag, or, failing, die the noblest of noble deaths. The service proceeded; a war chapter from the Old Testament was read; the first prayer was said; it was followed by an organ burst that shook the building, and with one impulse the house rose, with glowing eyes and beating hearts, and poured out that tremendous invocation

*God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest! Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!*​

Then came the "long" prayer. None could remember the like of it for passionate pleading and moving and beautiful language. The burden of its supplication was, that an ever-merciful and benignant Father of us all would watch over our noble young soldiers, and aid, comfort, and encourage them in their patriotic work; bless them, shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril, bear them in His mighty hand, make them strong and confident, invincible in the bloody onset; help them to crush the foe, grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory --
An aged stranger entered and moved with slow and noiseless step up the main aisle, his eyes fixed upon the minister, his long body clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, his head bare, his white hair descending in a frothy cataract to his shoulders, his seamy face unnaturally pale, pale even to ghastliness. With all eyes following him and wondering, he made his silent way; without pausing, he ascended to the preacher's side and stood there waiting. With shut lids the preacher, unconscious of his presence, continued with his moving prayer, and at last finished it with the words, uttered in fervent appeal, "Bless our arms, grant us the victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag!"
The stranger touched his arm, motioned him to step aside -- which the startled minister did -- and took his place. During some moments he surveyed the spellbound audience with solemn eyes, in which burned an uncanny light; then in a deep voice he said:
"I come from the Throne -- bearing a message from Almighty God!" The words smote the house with a shock; if the stranger perceived it he gave no attention. "He has heard the prayer of His servant your shepherd, and will grant it if such shall be your desire after I, His messenger, shall have explained to you its import -- that is to say, its full import. For it is like unto many of the prayers of men, in that it asks for more than he who utters it is aware of -- except he pause and think.
"God's servant and yours has prayed his prayer. Has he paused and taken thought? Is it one prayer? No, it is two -- one uttered, the other not. Both have reached the ear of Him Who heareth all supplications, the spoken and the unspoken. Ponder this -- keep it in mind. If you would beseech a blessing upon yourself, beware! lest without intent you invoke a curse upon a neighbor at the same time. If you pray for the blessing of rain upon your crop which needs it, by that act you are possibly praying for a curse upon some neighbor's crop which may not need rain and can be injured by it.
"You have heard your servant's prayer -- the uttered part of it. I am commissioned of God to put into words the other part of it -- that part which the pastor -- and also you in your hearts -- fervently prayed silently. And ignorantly and unthinkingly? God grant that it was so! You heard these words: 'Grant us the victory, O Lord our God!' That is sufficient. the *whole* of the uttered prayer is compact into those pregnant words. Elaborations were not necessary. When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory--*must* follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.
(*After a pause.*) "Ye have prayed it; if ye still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits!"
It was believed afterward that the man was a lunatic, because there was no sense in what he said.