Since when does an airline union get to define what is and isn't legitmate purpose?

[A Squared]

The statute seems to regulate the discovery demands placed on the NTSB, not the private agency (ie, the airline). It appears that a subpoena on the airline would not be controlled by this statute, only a FOIL. or similar, request on the government.

49 USC 1114 dictates what the NTSB may do with CVR tapes. It doesn't adress discovery. 49 USC 1154 addresses discovery. Take a look at that. It appears to me to go beyond what the NTSB may do or not do

 

[A Squared]

The "legitimate purpose" arguement went out the window, and precedent was set, when (then) Attorney General John Ashcroft allowed the families of flight 93 victims to listen to the CVR tapes.


Where was the statutory purpose there? There was none. So from a legal standpoint the motion is moot.

A statute is not like virginity. It doesn't cease to exist after one violation.

 

[Hold West]

Maybe if you just presented it, I would have read it. How the hell would I get an ALPA motion?

\

30 seconds worth of Google search, just like I did.

 

[Care269]

A Squared, You're right, it looks like 1154 controls. Here's a copy for those interested.

1154. Discovery and use of cockpit and surface vehicle recordings and transcripts


(a) Transcripts and recordings.--(1) Except as provided by this subsection, a party in a judicial proceeding may not use discovery to obtain--


(A) any part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript that the National Transportation Safety Board has not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title; and

(B) a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording.


(2)(A) Except as provided in paragraph (4)(A) of this subsection, a court may allow discovery by a party of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript if, after an in camera review of the transcript, the court decides that--


(i) the part of the transcript made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title does not provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial; and

(ii) discovery of additional parts of the transcript is necessary to provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial.


(B) A court may allow discovery, or require production for an in camera review, of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript that the Board has not made available under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title only if the cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording is not available.


(3) Except as provided in paragraph (4)(A) of this subsection, a court may allow discovery by a party of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording if, after an in camera review of the recording, the court decides that--


(A) the parts of the transcript made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title and to the party through discovery under
paragraph (2) of this subsection do not provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial; and

(B) discovery of the cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording is necessary to provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial.


(4)(A) When a court allows discovery in a judicial proceeding of a part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title or a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording, the court shall issue a protective order--


(i) to limit the use of the part of the transcript or the recording to the judicial proceeding; and

(ii) to prohibit dissemination of the part of the transcript or the recording to any person that does not need access to the part of the transcript or the recording for the proceeding.


(B) A court may allow a part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title or a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording to be admitted into evidence in a judicial proceeding, only if the court places the part of the transcript or the recording under seal to prevent the use of the part of the transcript or the recording for purposes other than for the proceeding.


(5) This subsection does not prevent the Board from referring at any time to cockpit or surface vehicle recorder information in making safety recommendations.


(6) In this subsection:


(A) Recorder.--The term "recorder" means a voice or video recorder.

(B) Transcript.--The term "transcript" includes any written depiction of visual information obtained from a video recorder.


(b) Reports.--No part of a report of the Board, related to an accident or an investigation of an accident, may be admitted into evidence or used in a civil action for damages resulting from a matter mentioned in the report.


CREDIT(S)

 

[FN FAL]

Thanks for the lead on 49 USC 114, heres the text:

a) General.--

(1) Except as provided in subsections (b), (c), (d), and (f) of this section, a copy of a record, information, or investigation submitted or received by the National Transportation Safety Board, or a member or employee of the Board, shall be made available to the public on identifiable request and at reasonable cost. This subsection does not require the release of information described by section 552(b) of title 5 or protected from disclosure by another law of the United States.


(c) Cockpit recordings and transcripts. --


(1) The Board may not disclose publicly any part of a cockpit voice or video recorder recording or transcript of oral communications by and between flight crew members and ground stations related to an accident or incident investigated by the Board. However, the Board shall make public any part of a transcript or any written depiction of visual information the Board decides is relevant to the accident or incident--

(A) if the Board holds a public hearing on the accident or incident, at the time of the hearing; or

(B) if the Board does not hold a public hearing, at the time a majority of the
other factual reports on the accident or incident are placed in the public docket.

​

(2) This subsection does not prevent the Board from referring at any time to cockpit voice or video recorder information in making safety recommendations.


CREDIT(S)

Thanks for the citation.

It does bring up an interesting point on Air-Ground communications. If a private person had a personal recording of the A/G communication, this rule wouldn't prevent them from sharing it with others. But as this says, the ntsb can only release transcripts. As we saw in the Pinnacle crash.

 

[FN FAL]

\

30 seconds worth of Google search, just like I did.

Wow...you're smooooth. That's what being a contributor to a discussion is all about.

 

[FN FAL]

A Squared, You're right, it looks like 1154 controls. Here's a copy for those interested.

1154. Discovery and use of cockpit and surface vehicle recordings and transcripts


(a) Transcripts and recordings.--(1) Except as provided by this subsection, a party in a judicial proceeding may not use discovery to obtain--


(A) any part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript that the National Transportation Safety Board has not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title; and

(B) a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording.


(2)(A) Except as provided in paragraph (4)(A) of this subsection, a court may allow discovery by a party of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript if, after an in camera review of the transcript, the court decides that--


(i) the part of the transcript made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title does not provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial; and

(ii) discovery of additional parts of the transcript is necessary to provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial.


(B) A court may allow discovery, or require production for an in camera review, of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript that the Board has not made available under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title only if the cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording is not available.


(3) Except as provided in paragraph (4)(A) of this subsection, a court may allow discovery by a party of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording if, after an in camera review of the recording, the court decides that--


(A) the parts of the transcript made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title and to the party through discovery under
paragraph (2) of this subsection do not provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial; and

(B) discovery of the cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording is necessary to provide the party with sufficient information for the party to receive a fair trial.


(4)(A) When a court allows discovery in a judicial proceeding of a part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title or a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording, the court shall issue a protective order--


(i) to limit the use of the part of the transcript or the recording to the judicial proceeding; and

(ii) to prohibit dissemination of the part of the transcript or the recording to any person that does not need access to the part of the transcript or the recording for the proceeding.


(B) A court may allow a part of a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder transcript not made available to the public under section 1114(c) or 1114(d) of this title or a cockpit or surface vehicle recorder recording to be admitted into evidence in a judicial proceeding, only if the court places the part of the transcript or the recording under seal to prevent the use of the part of the transcript or the recording for purposes other than for the proceeding.


(5) This subsection does not prevent the Board from referring at any time to cockpit or surface vehicle recorder information in making safety recommendations.


(6) In this subsection:


(A) Recorder.--The term "recorder" means a voice or video recorder.

(B) Transcript.--The term "transcript" includes any written depiction of visual information obtained from a video recorder.


(b) Reports.--No part of a report of the Board, related to an accident or an investigation of an accident, may be admitted into evidence or used in a civil action for damages resulting from a matter mentioned in the report.


CREDIT(S)

Looks like we have a winner..."legitimate purpose" is clearly defined here.

Thanks for your citation, I think this answers my question.

 

[Hold West]

Thanks for the citation.

It does bring up an interesting point on Air-Ground communications. If a private person had a personal recording of the A/G communication, this rule wouldn't prevent them from sharing it with others. But as this says, the ntsb can only release transcripts. As we saw in the Pinnacle crash.

The air/ground communications are a different animal, and covered under 18 USC 2511, in part:

(g) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter or chapter 121 of this title for any person—
(i) to intercept or access an electronic communication made through an electronic communication system that is configured so that such electronic communication is readily accessible to the general public;
(ii) to intercept any radio communication which is transmitted— (I) by any station for the use of the general public, or that relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress;
(II) by any governmental, law enforcement, civil defense, private land mobile, or public safety communications system, including police and fire, readily accessible to the general public;
(III) by a station operating on an authorized frequency within the bands allocated to the amateur, citizens band, or general mobile radio services; or
(IV) by any marine or aeronautical communications system;

And tapes of ATC comms are readily available from the FAA via the FOIA process. When I was a QA guy for a little while in Minneapolis Center, one of my jobs was making tapes in response to FOIA requests, and reviewing them for anything that might be ugly for the FAA.

 

[FN FAL]

The air/ground communications are a different animal, and covered under 18 USC 2511, in part:

(g) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter or chapter 121 of this title for any person—
(i) to intercept or access an electronic communication made through an electronic communication system that is configured so that such electronic communication is readily accessible to the general public;
(ii) to intercept any radio communication which is transmitted— (I) by any station for the use of the general public, or that relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles, or persons in distress;
(II) by any governmental, law enforcement, civil defense, private land mobile, or public safety communications system, including police and fire, readily accessible to the general public;
(III) by a station operating on an authorized frequency within the bands allocated to the amateur, citizens band, or general mobile radio services; or
(IV) by any marine or aeronautical communications system;

And tapes of ATC comms are readily available from the FAA via the FOIA process. When I was a QA guy for a little while in Minneapolis Center, one of my jobs was making tapes in response to FOIA requests, and reviewing them for anything that might be ugly for the FAA.

Thanks for the citation.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Geez!

Are you guys still at it?

If the CVR was played on a treadmill that moved at exactly the same speed in the opposite direction, could you hear the sound?