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Simulator traning, low vis take offs from displaced threshold.

indefinitehold

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Can anyone answer this one for me?

My full time job is a SIM inst. DA-EASy, DA-2EASy, 7X. We have a low vis take off out of KJFK on runway 13R from the displaced threshold for full length. 13R @ taxiway PE. The displaced threshold only depicts RED lights as it is a overrun for the opposite runway 31L. The clients and I feel wrong and at odds taking off into RED lights. I can not find anything regarding this. I am assured by the SIM techs and the FAA who certified the airport in the data base for circling that it is visually correct. (The FAA check every light on the airport in the sim for circling authorization in the sim)

I posted this question to the ATC blog in the hanger, see below:

I am curious to legality, or the rules regarding runway takeoff clearance from the displaced threshold and not the beginning of the runway. My question has to do with what you can see regarding the runway environment.

In low visibility you would not see any runway environment (C.L.) until the beginning of the runway after the displaced threshold. You may see red runway lights indicating the last 1000’ from the other direction. Taking off into red lights is not kosher! Are there rules for such a scenario? Are they certain requirements for runway lighting in this case? Can you direct me or quote any regulations regarding my above scenario?


Thanks
 

pilotyip

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If it is a displaced threshold it can be used for take-off. If is an overrun it can be used. Check the AIM.
 

indefinitehold

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This I know, but i am trying to find out if there is any regulation as it pertains to such a ATC clearance based on visual requirements. Low RVR.

Like I said, Taking off into red lights is un- nerving
 

Coool Hand Luke

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You might be able to check under the Advisory Circular AC-150 series. If memory serves, this is where specs for airport lighting are defined.
 

MauleSkinner

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I would suspect there's a difference between Part 91 ops and Part 135 ops. IIRC, Part 135 ops dictate required lighting for low-vis takeoffs, I think in the OpSpecs. Check there, and see if what you're seeing is adequate.

Fly safe!

David
 

Andy Neill

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... We have a low vis take off out of KJFK on runway 13R from the displaced threshold for full length. 13R @ taxiway PE. The displaced threshold only depicts RED lights as it is a overrun for the opposite runway 31L. The clients and I feel wrong and at odds taking off into RED lights....
It was my understanding that the red lights you would see for the 31L overrun are directional and would not be visible when facing down the runway for takeoff on 13R. Is this not true? If it is so, the techs have a display accuracy issue on their hands.
*****
Edit:
Section 2-1-5 of the AIM:
a. Runway Centerline Lighting System (RCLS). Runway centerline lights are installed on some precision approach runways to facilitate landing under adverse visibility conditions. They are located along the runway centerline and are spaced at 50-foot intervals. When viewed from the landing threshold, the runway centerline lights are white until the last 3,000 feet of the runway. The white lights begin to alternate with red for the next 2,000 feet, and for the last 1,000 feet of the runway, all centerline lights are red.
 
Last edited:

great cornholio

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I know nothing of 91 or 135 ops, but in 121 our ops specs tell us what we need to see in order to be able to do the low vis t/o. It varies per company, but generally speaking you need to be able to see a combo of runway markings, centerline markings, and centerline lights in order to do the various RVR t/o's. For us the limits of 1/4sm, 1000 RVR, and 600 RVR are where the different requirments take place, and we can't go with less than 600 RVR.

With all of that being said I'm trying to think of what the centerline lights on a displaced threshold look like in real life. From what I'm picturing in my head the centerline lights are white and are "incorporated" into the in pavement ALS for that runway during the t/o portion of that displaced threshold. I haven't looked it up online or anything so I may be wrong, but this is what I'm seeing in my head. If I'm right then it sounds like you might need to have a talk with the sim techs and have them fix the visuals.
 

great cornholio

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illinipilot

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I agree with Andy and Corn. In every instance that I am aware of, the centerline lights are directional and you should see white lights while departing from a displaced threshold. I checked at LAS and SLC today and that is the case at both of these airports.

John
 

indefinitehold

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You guys are the best, love this blog!
 

FLYHY

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Welcome to FI...

I agree that the displaced threshold should be green not red.

I could not find specifically where it stated the appropriate colors of the threshold lights. But as reference, an FAA presentation stated that the approach threshold should be green and the roll out threshold should be red [www.faa.gov/.../airports/airport_safety/media/airport_safety_program_presentation.ppt].

In AIM 2-1-9e: "Pilots should never cross a red illuminated stop bar, even if an ATC clearance has bee given to proceed onto or across the runway."

Two schools of thought; 1. If the FAA has approved the simulator, keep the program going. 2. In reduced visibility scenarios, pilots could confuse the red threshold as a stop bar.

I know your question is regarding taking off, but since the FAA commented on circling, another thought is that no matter how you line up for a runway you will always see a green threshold unless you are flying past the departure end threshold.

Best of luck for a proper response!
 
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