SIC check out question.

[AMDFlyer]

Folks,

How does one go about a SIC check out? I fly for an airline, but I would like to get in a very, very part time corporate flying (without undercutting any one ).

I read in a few places that Part 61.55 check out, which I had a couple of years ago, is not good anymore due to the insurance reasons. I was told that people have to go through a part of the Captains class and sim training to get signed of as a SIC.

1. How long does the class + sim take and how much does it cost?
2. I assume it is offered by FlightSafety, CAE and others, right?
3. What airplane would you suggest to train in (easiest to find occasional jobs)?
4. Do the insurance policies have currency requirements for SIC's?

Thank you very much for your time.

First of all where do you want to fly out from?
Ita all depends where you want to conduct your part time flying. There are areas where it is easier than other cities because of the acft population and wealth of owners.
As far as training goes nowadays I would not reccomend to spend money on your own for training unless you do not have a budget to worry about.
If you want a cheap Citation rating PrestSim might be what you are looking for, training is not as good as CAE but much much cheaper. Otherwise you could get into the LearJet segment and have your SIC type or full blown type rating @ CAE SImuflite; they are the most competitive price-wise around.
Be careful about that because it will not be always possible to do contract flying on your own rules and time it is a jungle when you get into it.

 

[EMBpilot]

Thanks for all the priceless info, guys.
I fly a 767 (FO), 99% long haul, so doing some fun and "entirely different kind of flying all together" every once in a while is a very attractive deal to me to stay in love with aviation.
Area - SoCal.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

I'll help you with a part-time Citation gig if you'll help me with a 767 gig!

 

[ROSWELL41]

Anyone ever gotten the 61.55 SIC endorsement through 'in-house' training (i.e. in a company's aircraft)? What types of things did you do on the flight? Anything more than the minimum required? How long did all of the training take? Were you ever questioned later on about your training by another employer?

 

[tracearabians]

Most insurance companies now require school to be SIC qualified. Cost will vary. School is approx 5-6 days. Simcom is the least expensive. Depending on what type aircraft either Orlando or Phoenix.

Folks,

How does one go about a SIC check out? I fly for an airline, but I would like to get in a very, very part time corporate flying (without undercutting any one ).

I read in a few places that Part 61.55 check out, which I had a couple of years ago, is not good anymore due to the insurance reasons. I was told that people have to go through a part of the Captains class and sim training to get signed of as a SIC.

1. How long does the class + sim take and how much does it cost?
2. I assume it is offered by FlightSafety, CAE and others, right?
3. What airplane would you suggest to train in (easiest to find occasional jobs)?
4. Do the insurance policies have currency requirements for SIC's?

Thank you very much for your time.

 

[tracearabians]

We have a Citation V. Our insurance requirements state for SIC :
1) 2500 tt
2) 1000 mel
3) 250 turbine or jet
4) 25 in type
5) current school ( 1 year )

Folks,

How does one go about a SIC check out? I fly for an airline, but I would like to get in a very, very part time corporate flying (without undercutting any one ).

I read in a few places that Part 61.55 check out, which I had a couple of years ago, is not good anymore due to the insurance reasons. I was told that people have to go through a part of the Captains class and sim training to get signed of as a SIC.

1. How long does the class + sim take and how much does it cost?
2. I assume it is offered by FlightSafety, CAE and others, right?
3. What airplane would you suggest to train in (easiest to find occasional jobs)?
4. Do the insurance policies have currency requirements for SIC's?

Thank you very much for your time.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

We have a Citation V. Our insurance requirements state for SIC :
1) 2500 tt
2) 1000 mel
3) 250 turbine or jet
4) 25 in type
5) current school ( 1 year )

​

You need to get a new insurance provider. We can use anyone we want provided they are FlightSafety or SimuFlite current.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Premiums will go up with less requirements like that. Those requirements are in place to keep premiums lower, especially with a lot of liability. School is a must, but someone with closer time requirements can usually get by with a little arguing. Someone with very little time though, forget it.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Well how can I argue with a Donorne, Lvl 30 Night Elf Druid...whatever that is.

 

[Hung Start]

CapnVeggeto:

Any ideas what your insurance requirements might be to be in the left seat? They used to be pretty easy in a 500 series, but I understand all insurances have clamped down quite a bit.
Thanks

Hung

 

[CapnVegetto]

CapnVeggeto:

Any ideas what your insurance requirements might be to be in the left seat? They used to be pretty easy in a 500 series, but I understand all insurances have clamped down quite a bit.
Thanks

Hung

It depends on a number of factors.....how much hull and liability you carry, what type of operation, etc. Our time requirements, open pilot for left seat is 4000 TT, 2000 ME, 1000 turbine, 500 in type, school within a year. I don't have the TT, but I've got close to the ME, well over the turbine, and over the type, so they let me slide. I'm 'named' on the policy.

I've seen TT requirements as low as 2500 hours, but that's for ratty 135 ops that carry minimal insurance. I think a lot of it depends on how long you've been with the insurance company, too. I know of one charter company in the area with at least 1 sub 2000 hour captain (the guy has like 1500 in type though). They said that the insurance approves "anyone they approve" because they've been with them for so long and have never had a claim.

Roughly I'd say about 3500 TT and 500 in type will be enough to slide you by on most policies. Less is always possible though, with some bitching and possible premium increase. Whenever an underwriter says you're unisnsurable, look for another insurance company. Almost anyone can be insured, it'll just cost more.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Well how can I argue with a Donorne, Lvl 30 Night Elf Druid...whatever that is.

Grow up dude.

 

[Hung Start]

Thanks, Capn'

We are carrying 50 mil on the liability, currently strictly pt 91. Might go limited 135, by limited I would think no more than 100 hours a year or so.
Both seats need type and annual recurrent according to Insurance Co. I'm not sure what our open pilot is, if I find out I will post it.
Of course I have to chuckle with the requirement for a SIC to have "25" hours in type. How can you get it? Not like we have observation seats to put the "real" SIC!


Hung

 

[CFIse]

Folks,
How does one go about a SIC check out? I fly for an airline, but I would like to get in a very, very part time corporate flying (without undercutting any one ).

Part 91 - I think it's just 3 bounces - or at least that's what my buddies have been doing.

Now if your company has different insurance requirements then well, you have to meet them, but since you don't say what they are then....

Not to be too much of an a*1sehole - but does your airline allow commercial flying on the side?

 

[CarjCapt]

how about this

§ 61.55 Second-in-command qualifications.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person holds:
(1) At least a current private pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating; and
(2) An instrument rating that applies to the aircraft being flown if the flight is under IFR.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may serve as a second in command of an aircraft type certificated for more than one required pilot flight crewmember or in operations requiring a second in command unless that person has within the previous 12 calendar months:
(1) Become familiar with the following information for the specific type aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested—
(i) Operational procedures applicable to the powerplant, equipment, and systems.
(ii) Performance specifications and limitations.
(iii) Normal, abnormal, and emergency operating procedures.
(iv) Flight manual.
(v) Placards and markings.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, performed and logged pilot time in the type of aircraft or in a flight simulator that represents the type of aircraft for which second-in-command privileges are requested, which includes—
(i) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop as the sole manipulator of the flight controls;
(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and
(iii) Crew resource management training.
(c) If a person complies with the requirements in paragraph (b) of this section in the calendar month before or the calendar month after the month in which compliance with this section is required, then that person is considered to have accomplished the training and practice in the month it is due.
(d) This section does not apply to a person who is:
(1) Designated and qualified as pilot in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(2) Designated as the second in command under subpart K of part 91, part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter in that specific type of aircraft;
(3) Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft; or
(4) Designated as a safety pilot for purposes required by §91.109(b) of this chapter.
(e) The holder of a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate category and class rating is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (b)(2) of this section, provided the pilot:
(1) Is conducting a ferry flight, aircraft flight test, or evaluation flight of an aircraft's equipment; and
(2) Is not carrying any person or property on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(f) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section, a person may serve as second in command in that specific type aircraft, provided:
(1) The flight is conducted under day VFR or day IFR; and
(2) No person or property is carried on board the aircraft, other than necessary for conduct of the flight.
(g) Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section may be accomplished in a flight simulator that is used in accordance with an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(h) An applicant for an initial second-in-command qualification for a particular type of aircraft who is qualifying under the terms of paragraph (g) of this section must satisfactorily complete a minimum of one takeoff and one landing in an aircraft of the same type for which the qualification is sought.

 

[ROSWELL41]

(ii) Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command; and

What does everyone do to satisfy this requirement if the training is done in the airplane?

 

[CapnVegetto]

You can get by on that by bringing the engine to idle, thereby 'simulating an engine out'. But good post by CarjCapt. 3 bounces just won't quite do it anyomre. You can get by, probably, but if something happens you'd better have some written documentation that the SIC has been 'properly trained' on the above procedures, or that's just one more thing the feds can bust your butt on.

Generally they don't much care about 91 ops until they have to......why do you think there are no duty time requirments, record keeping requirements, etc? They don't give a crap what you do until something happens, then they'll be all over you.

 

[ROSWELL41]

Does all of the 61.55 training have to be on the same flight? Can you just do one landing on each empty leg you fly in day VFR/IFR until you have the 3 and then do the single engine stuff and be OK? I'm not looking to bend the regs, just looking to follow them and get the stuff done as easily as possible.

 

[CarjCapt]

Generally they don't much care about 91 ops until they have to......why do you think there are no duty time requirments, record keeping requirements, etc? They don't give a crap what you do until something happens, then they'll be all over you.

My question would be of the part 91 jet operators out there that use contract pilots, how many actually follow 61.55 to the letter? Rather than having someone get in the seat and see if they can walk and chew gum at the same time.

My guess is there are very few part 91 chief pilots who actually give some ground school, procedures training, CRM, 3 takeoffs and landings as the sole manipulator of the controls, and lastly V1 cuts in their very expensive Jet.

 

[CapnVegetto]

My question would be of the part 91 jet operators out there that use contract pilots, how many actually follow 61.55 to the letter? Rather than having someone get in the seat and see if they can walk and chew gum at the same time.

My guess is there are very few part 91 chief pilots who actually give some ground school, procedures training, CRM, 3 takeoffs and landings as the sole manipulator of the controls, and lastly V1 cuts in their very expensive Jet.

A lot of it depends on insurance. For part 135, in house training programs are easier to get away with because they're more heavily regulated by the FAA. But in a two pilot aircraft, part 91, you will almost never find an insurance company that will let someone sit in that seat that hasn't been to simulator training within the last year. Legality and insurance are two totally different animals. For part 91, about 98% of the time, if you haven't been to sim within a year, in either seat, forget it.

Now legalities are different. You can get every one of those points in on one 1.5 hour flight for SIC. It's easy. However, what proof is there? You don't have to keep records, you don't have to carry a logbook. Who's to say that you're current? If a fed decides to find out, you have 10 business days to provide them with copies of logbook entries if they are requested. (I think it's 10 anyway, not quite sure), but that's plenty of time to doctor anything you want. Legally, it's easy to get away with. Hell, you could do the training on an empty leg on the way to pick up passengers. How the hell do they know what you did?

However, you DO have to have the 3 takeoffs and landings to carry pax as an SIC. If you're empty, a rating and a pulse will do. So sitting there on empty legs not flying w/o your bounces with pax won't do. To be sitting in the seat, you have to be legal, whether you're doing something or not. The only exception would be a single pilot aircraft, in which case you are not a required crewmember, so insurance, landings, whatever doesn't matter. Some companies will do this. I know if I was going to TEB in bad weather or something like that it would be nice to have an extra hand up there, even if I was single pilot rated. It's just a safety thing. In this case, no sim, bounces, or anything is required. Perhaps this is the contract flying you are referring to. But, I know that 98% of the time, as far as insurance is concerned, for SIC or PIC, no sim within a year equals no fly Mr. Jet.