SIC Blues

[BugSmasher999]

I’ve been doing some 135/Corporate SIC stuff for a while now and I’m liking it (Thanks for your forum discussion earlier in the year.…) but sometimes I get paired with this one PIC, and I can never seem to please this guy. Everything I do seems to be incorrect or he’ll do it prior to me doing it correctly.



I’ll give you and example:
My PIC, during the pre-take off brief tells me that He’ll call for gear up. After take off, he calls for “gear up”, and as I’m reaching for the gear lever he reaches for it himself and brings the gear up. This is normal for him.




Another example:

During the approach brief my pilot said to use up as much runway as I need, (it’s late/there’s no traffic/and we’ve got a 6000 ft. long strip). I make a decent landing, and on roll outwe’re coasting, and I figure we’ll just roll out to the end. My pilot (on the rollout) grabs the controls and sais “what are you doing?” And yanks back on the yolk for some aerodynamic braking. (and no this nosewheel doesn’t shimmy). He then seems disgusted by My performance.



Another example:

Chew duties are divided between the flying and the non flying pilot. The Non-Flying pilot (me) is in charge of radio comm., and navigation. While enroute, Center gives us another frequency, my PIC makes the reply…then before I can do anything he dials it up on the radio and then checks in. This happens all the time.



Anther Example:

During various operations (when I’m the flying pilot) the PIC will read the action items and I’ll perform the action or the check… but particularly after landing He’s in such a rush to get the airplane stopped and open the cabin door he’ll SKIP ITEMS on the checklist. Last time this resulted in an “improper sequence of events” after landing. Later on when the PIC realized that a particular operation hadn’t been performed. He then shouts about the action item looks at me like I’m the idiot.



The thing is it's always something... I can't say I've had a single trip that went smoothly with this guy. Other PIC’s in the operation have told me that what he does is rude cockpit behavior, and warned me about it. But what do I do? This guys probably reporting to the boss that I’m not a very good pilot.



How did you deal with this type of problem? Just let him continue and get used to it?

 

[side stick-n]

Try printing your message and leaving it in a place he will find it......... Tough position and I wish I could give you more advice. If you have no way of NOT flying with this captain, the way I see it you really only have two choices. One is the obvious; quit and get another job or two; find a way to help make the situation better. The second can only be done by bringing it out in the open but use caution and tact. (something I don't always do very well)

Good luck.

 

[bafanguy]

First of all, the other capts you fly with will see to it that this bonehead's opinion of you isn't the ONLY one to reach the bosses ears. Let them know what this guy is doing so they can help you head off any potential trouble. If anyone goes in to see anyone, you and the other copilots should let the boss know this idiot is running a non-standard and potentially unsafe operation by destabilizing the cockpit environment without a good, operational reason.


It won't be of any consolation to you, but being the copilot is absolutely the MOST difficult job one can imagine...being many things to too many people. Been there;done that. Just do everything you can to keep things safe, legal, and standardized. Your company must have standardization and SOP's. They are the best friend a copilot ever had. Stick with them until there's a darned good reason not to. They are good for the operation and take some of the guesswork out of your already difficult job.

I wish I could say something other than "welcome to aviation", but you won't be a copilot forever...it just seems that way with people like this bonehead to work with ( and they are the exception rather than the rule ). Hang in there and think how much better a captain you'll be from the negative training this guy has provided for you.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Welcome to the rat$hit world of 135 charter!... and to the jackoff captains who are such buffoons that this is the pinnacle of thier careers.

99% of the time in jobs like this a pi$$ing contest will go in favor of the Captain. He is probably a lifer and they want to keep him (cheap labor 24/7). You are easily replaceable by the next CFI looking to advance on. Try and keep a good attitude and get checked out as a PIC.......

.... while you continue checking out NEW JOBS!!

It will be over before you know it!! -- and rest assured the further up the food chain you move you will encounter FAR fewer of these types - they just dont get far - and thats a good thing.

 

[jergar999]

Good advice from the previous guys. In the meantime, do things by the book. If he says to skip a checklist, run it anyway, and let him know its done. Keep doing what you know you should be doing, that way he will have no fuel to throw on a fire should he start one. I flew as an SIC with a gentlemen very much like him, and although it seemed like a lifetime his habits eventually caught up with him. It might also help to view this as a "what not to do when I'm in his shoes" experience.

Good Luck

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Been there, done that as they say...

My advice: keep a cool head, do things by the book, and get out of there ASAP! That was my salvation...I stayed just long enough to become competitive for a regional airline job and then bailed. A 121 or reputable corporate job will make a world of difference.

Best of luck...hang in there.

KAK

 

[suen1843]

Bug...you do have a problem and you have gotten some good advice from other posters. Unfortunately, you probably will just have to "go along to get along". Yeah....it sure is the pits.

Since you are just starting out in this career, what you are experiencing is part of the learning curve. It's too bad you are having to learn some of the more unpleasant sides of our business this early, but that's just the way it is.

I have not flown with you, so I don't know about your performance. Everyone keeps saying there are two sides to every story, but based on your info it appears your side is the correct one. My next comment does not imply you are doing something wrong. A few years back, I had a fairly new co-pilot who had a real tendency to screw things up, not follow all standard procedures, etc., etc. I just continued my job and covered up for his mistakes and had little to say to him about them. In retrospect, I was wrong in silently correcting the mistakes. This was not fair to the individual. That action (mine) is probably just as bad as what you are experiencing.

Again, I am not saying you are in the wrong (don't think you are), but just in case this individual has only one valid point vs 25 or more invalid points....learn from it.

The best thing you are learning right now is how NOT to do the job. So, in a few years or so when it is you sitting in the left seat with a new co-pilot in the right seat, remember how you were treated and don't repeat the mistakes you are seeing right now.

 

[sleepy]

I have learned more about flying from all of the idiots I have ever worked with than any of the good pilots. Just remember how it feels when you are the PIC someday.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

Flew with one of these. He eventually put the gear up on the ground when he was pnf in a small jet. Had to laugh.

Bottom feeder 135 outfits are unfortunately full of guys like this because they will never work elsewhere, and I do not mean that in a good way.

Document everything that goes on, dates and times, particularly if there are safety issues, or violations of FARs and/or company policy. Hang on to these notes, they are your insurance policy for when the guy screws up. Other than that, look for another job, and see if there is a way to influence scheduling without getting your tail in a sling.

Good luck.

 

[FracCapt]

I don't see any jets listed on your "Aircraft flown" list, so I'm assuming it's a turboprop(I assume BA90 means a King Air A90). If so, this pilot is more than likely single pilot qualified - and does checkrides as a single pilot operation. IF it is a single pilot aircraft, then he should be operating the gear at all times - so that on those flights that he is alone, he doesn't call for gear down and land with it up because nobody else put it down...or not be able to climb after losing an engine because he called for gear up and...... If he is not SP qualified in the aircraft, there's no reason for what he's doing. He may just be doing it out of habit if he often flies it SP. Same with the radio calls.

As for him being an a$$bag....well, there's absolutely no reason for that. Unfortunately, some people never learn what it means to be a good Captain.

 

[aeronautic1]

All good advice

I too flew with a Lear captain (George A. in Tahoe) who was a flaming a-hole. Bad alcoholic even worse anger management (or lack of). But thru my association with him I met other Lear captains that I have flown with and it just perpetuates itself from there. Smile and nod alot. Some of these people get vicarious pleasure at other's discomfort. And by all means, join AOPA and make sure you sign up for the legal fund. It will save your bacon to have a legal team on your side when the pilot flying pulls a stunt that gets you violated. Believe me, it hapens!!

 

[aroundtheblock]

As a young pilot coming up through the ranks you are learning what kind of captain you are going to be. You take examples from the pilots you admire and also take examples of what not to do from bums like this. Make it a learning experience, and if it's like many 135 jobs, it won't last too long.

 

[falconpilot]

Ok...... This can be a difficult thing to go through.... I had the same problem with a capt I flew with. He loved to everything himself.... Put the gear up, put the flaps out, I was just basically a warm body in the right seat. This guy thought he was untouchable... (until the FAA suspended his license, but that a whole other story) You have to try your best to just stay cool and do your job, even though I know that you want to slap him with the checklist! Just make sure you cover your own ass.... He's the PIC so if he F*cks up.... He's the one responsible.. But store this experience in the back of your mind, so when you get to sit in the left seat and there is a new guy in the right seat, you will know how NOT to treat him/her.

 

[Kingairrick]

I'd second the learning experience opinions above.

Here's a story to ilustrate. When I first began doing SIC duties in the King Air 90, I took the SIC/CRM thing seriously, and still do. I was lucky enough to be broken in by a very experienced, laid back captain who had really been there, done that. (He in now a Capt at Netjets.) He was awesome, taught me the airplane and lots about corporate aviation. He left for Netjets, and I began flying with other Captains. Eventually, I was under consideration at another company for a full-time job as FO-soon to be Capt on a 90. The interview consisted of me flying with their present Capt. for about a month. After this time, the CP called me and said that I was no longer under consideration for the position, as I was considered to be poor in the CRM skills department. Specifically, I was too aggressive and over assertive in the cockpit.

I was shocked! I studied CRM techniques, and SOPs and believed that I was GREAT in CRM! I took the learning approach and polled the captians I had been flying with at company "A", and 3 out of 4 said that I was great. However, the 4th said that he agreed that I was too agressive, but that he knew that I was just "gung ho."

Here's where the learning came in. CRM is about personalities. There IS a personality type that is your opposite. All of us have this. This personality type for me, interprets my "opinions" as over-assertivness. Maybe your problems with this captain are personality based.

SOPs are supposed, in theory, to deal with this issue. I would take the advice offered above, and make sure that everything is done by the book. It will make you a better captain in the NEAR future.

Oh yeah, when someone else is flying, if it isn't outside the flight envelope for the aircraft or operation, keep your mouth shut. You "opinion" may be seen as critisizing their technique. That's a freebie from me, after a hard lesson learned.

 

[jasonwb]

i feel sorry for you man, i know guys out there like that and i know guys who fly with guys like that. like everyone else has said...learn from this guy, one of these days you will be capt. and you will know how NOT to carry out your captain duties. this guy is going to have a rude awakening one of these days when he is searching for a job in this tightly knit community and he is going to have a hard time even when there are jobs available because people will know of him and will not reccomend him.
i am fortunate to be flying with a Captain who is one of the best kinds of captains there is....one who is molding his co-pilot to be a captain one day. i have a lot of respect for him for that.
not a day goes by that i dont look forward to flying with this capt. and that is the way it is supposed to be.

To this Captain......i just want to say Thanx!!!!

 

[bafanguy]

kingairrick,


Good post...good points. Hard to tell from here, but maybe the company or pilots at the new company didn't really understand CRM, and YOU did. When they saw it in action, they misinterpreted from lack of understanding. And since it was their party, they got to send out the invitations. Hard to say.

As I said in my earlier post, it's difficult to imagine a more difficult job, in the routine scheme of ops, than being a copilot...CRM or no CRM. Like many other people, I've got a bit more FO time on my resume than I would've wanted and it was all before the industry could even spell CRM. Add a lack of standardization to that and you've got a tough day for the copilot. And I was flying with pretty good guys. You can't tell me too many copilot stories I can't match, up to and including taking the airplane away from the captain. I FEEL your pain.

All I can say is that, CRM not withstanding, sometimes it's not WHAT one says, but HOW one says it; how it plays in the personalities game, as you said. Even if a guy rubbed me the wrong way, I was hard pressed to get mad at a FO who was obviously trying to do the right thing. If he caught ME screwing up, guess who I had to be irked at !!

It was always a mystery to me why a FO would come out and, right off the bat, be wildly non-standard. This left me no choice but to pound the square peg into the round hole...no fun for either of us. SOP's, FAR's, AIM, company policies, etc., are the best friend a copilot ever had. Do them ( this requires book work...) until El Magnifico says not to. If he wants something different, you won't feel picked-on...you were just caught doing your job. How upset can you be about that ?

This is an interesting and very important subject. I'm sure lots of guys can shed more light on it.