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Shuttle Am/ chataqua

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I.P. Freley said:
And don't fight a seniority list integration that is fair and equitable to both parties... DOH, anyone?
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as a 'fair and equitable' seniority list integration. Someone is getting screwed no matter how you do it. The only 'fair' way is to screw both parties a little by using DOH, as opposed to screwing one party alot.
 
I bet pretty much everyone gets screwed a little. For all you CHQ people who think SA people don't deserve anything but "bottom of the list", how would YOU feel if YOU were at SA and all these shiny 70's showed up, but you were seat-locked indefinitely (just a guess) and probably wouldn't get to fly one for YEARS to come? The company that you sacrificed for, that you took pay cuts to keep running, is now used by the Mother Ship to save them some money and you don't get to fly the airplanes sitting in the hangar? Sounds like they're getting screwed, too, dunnit? The redheaded stepchild moves on from getting spanked on a regular basis to getting locked in the basement without food or water...

For crying out loud... RAH is going to continue to grow and any integration that stuffs SA people in the list is going to mean less and less as time goes by. Think of the big picture, people, this allows your company to grow even more... far more, I'd guess, than the 'inconvenience' of an extra hundred pilots on your list will cause.

But you're right, in the end. Screw everyone a little, and don't worry, most of those SA pilots will be flying the Saab for a good while and won't be stealing any seats.
 
I.P. Freley said:
I bet pretty much everyone gets screwed a little. For all you CHQ people who think SA people don't deserve anything but "bottom of the list", how would YOU feel if YOU were at SA and all these shiny 70's showed up, but you were seat-locked indefinitely (just a guess) and probably wouldn't get to fly one for YEARS to come? The company that you sacrificed for, that you took pay cuts to keep running, is now used by the Mother Ship to save them some money and you don't get to fly the airplanes sitting in the hangar? Sounds like they're getting screwed, too, dunnit? The redheaded stepchild moves on from getting spanked on a regular basis to getting locked in the basement without food or water...

For crying out loud... RAH is going to continue to grow and any integration that stuffs SA people in the list is going to mean less and less as time goes by. Think of the big picture, people, this allows your company to grow even more... far more, I'd guess, than the 'inconvenience' of an extra hundred pilots on your list will cause.

But you're right, in the end. Screw everyone a little, and don't worry, most of those SA pilots will be flying the Saab for a good while and won't be stealing any seats.
Click to expand...

Its tough to feel too terribly sorry for someone who is going from flying for a company who has threatened to close down multiple times, flying on short term contracts, and flying worn out airplane....too DOH integration flying brand new E170s as if you had been there all along. My point is not to throw mud, but to suggest the SA group has alot to gain from this, and CHQ group very little besides the lack of the everpresent whipsaw.
 
It's tough to feel too terribly sorry for someone who someone who is going from flying an RJ to... flying an RJ. And will KEEP flying an RJ...

If you think that the CHQ group has very little to gain from this, let me ask you this... Do you think that BB wouldn't have found a way to get back some of those millions they were going to have to pay out to the American folks from the pilots?

I also think you are overstating the 'facts' when you suggest that all those SA people are going to slide effortlessly into the 170. It is more likely that there is going to be some sort of a seat-lock, and assuming that is accurate, not many of the SA pilots are going to have the seniority (even with DOH) to roll into the left seat of a 170.

Sorry you have so little sympathy for the possible plight of the hardworking group that kept SA going for the last three years, but I'm more sorry that you don't see how the CHQ group has something to gain from this, too.
 
Sorry guys, but my CHQ brethren bitching and moaning about a staple are really pissing me off here. Guys and gals, its 100 FREAKIN pilots! This is an opportunity to do right by a pilot group that is supposed to be our brothers/sisters, and has had a rough road for several years. Do those of you screaming STAPLE even remember that Shuttle started out as an independant flying Dash 8s?? A straight DOH integration would barely create a burp in our list, and is just plain the right thing to do. BTW do you really think there would be a mass exodus of Saab drivers to the 170? Hell no, the company would **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure set up fences. For chrissakes, we don't even transition 145 FOs to the airplane. Grow up, children.
 
Its a good deal for SA, long term good deal for CHQ, and truth of the matter is, it probably doesnt matter what any of us thinks.
 
aewanabe said:
Sorry guys, but my CHQ brethren bitching and moaning about a staple are really pissing me off here. Guys and gals, its 100 FREAKIN pilots! This is an opportunity to do right by a pilot group that is supposed to be our brothers/sisters, and has had a rough road for several years. Do those of you screaming STAPLE even remember that Shuttle started out as an independant flying Dash 8s?? A straight DOH integration would barely create a burp in our list, and is just plain the right thing to do. BTW do you really think there would be a mass exodus of Saab drivers to the 170? Hell no, the company would **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** sure set up fences. For chrissakes, we don't even transition 145 FOs to the airplane. Grow up, children.
Click to expand...

Exactly right wanabe!!! Some people can NEVER see the big picture.
 
I appologize for my lack of "aviation economics" knowledge (funny since I actually have a minor in micro economics?) but I have a question. How does the whole announcement concerning Republic investing 125 Million in US Air play into this whole situation? Again, sorry for my probable ignorance, I just have trouble seeing the "big picture." Interesting times ahead for all you Shuttle guys/gals for sure.
 
tinpusher101 said:
big announcement made............

i did not see shuttle america any where mentioned



the truth shall set you free
Click to expand...

Sorry, but the $125 million investment into Airways was not agreed to overnight. It has obviously been in the works. It does not change the fact that the union meeting with Shuttle, Chq and the teamster higherups is still happening.

I am finally starting to hear some positive remarks from the Chq boys regarding fair integration, and I appreciate that. My family will be happy to know that I still might be able to put food on the table.
 
StuckInASaab said:
My family will be happy to know that I still might be able to put food on the table.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, you can move the whole gang in with me in The Fort and we can start growing crops in the back yard... Corn, of course. That's a given. But how about wheat? Yams? Brussels Sprouts?

We'll figure it out. You just supply the beef cattle. :D
 
Aviation Management 101:

It isn't a successful merger until all the pilots are pissed off.

Since a staple won't accomplish the above, I doubt it will happen.
 
I guess I have to officially retire my old favorite "Shuttlaqua"... Doesn't quite fit anymore. :D
 
Trust me, details will make it to flightinfo as quickly as they become available. I don't think any of the details are allowed to be shared as of yet, or aren't ironed out, whichever the case may be.

Doesn't mean there won't be a string of speculation before that time, as you can see in the prior posts.
 
AeroSlave,

With all due respect... If you've been at SA for "several years", you will not have anything close to "800" people ahead of you in line. If you've even been at SA for THREE years, and you assume DOH, you will have a seniority number no lower than about 500 (out of what will be, by the time this all happens, probably...1100? 1200?). If you're in the top 50% now, you are going to stay there.

A friend of mine was hired at CHQ in (I think) very late '02 and finished his captain IOE about a month ago... After putting off upgrade for several months to ensure a better choice of flying, so there are already people between him and "the bottom".

No, you won't be top o' the list by any stretch, but you're going to be in a fairly good position if you've been at SA for anything approaching the length of time you suggested in your post. RAH is still growing and your position will only get better. Keeping in mind the more senior Cap's at CHQ have already moved over to the 170, your position on the 145 list should be better still. Stay on the Saab as long as you can to keep your QOL (a relative term, I know) and by the time you "have to" bid the jet flying, bid the smallest jet you can (and the most convenient base) and your seniority will probably be pretty good.

A few of your comments suggests you could be "Old Shuttle". If so, your seniority will be pretty good indeed. Get on the 145 and you could conceivably have the kind of seniority that would keep you near the top of the list... Though if you ARE Old Shuttle, the pay raise won't be quite as dramatic as for the rest of the SA people.

If all of this happens as read, of course.
 
Last edited:
Nice post Aeroslave.

Ratio merges are probably the fairest way to merge two lists. Everyone keeps their "relative" seniority in the "new" airline. If you were sitting in the 20th% pre merge you would be in the 20th% post merged list. People need to get over the hang up with date of hire for it to even be an option. With that said, I haven't even seen the chq list to compare the different scenarios, so I have no clue what I am talking about.
 
tyuwerty,


I see the right click and save function worked for your avatar. I hope all Shuttle and CHQ pilots will join, and support the fair merger of our lists. CHQ, I look forward to working with you. Support the cause with your avatar.
SIAS
 
I think many people, including myself, would like to have a better understanding of where exactly their seniority would place them on the merged lists based purely on date of hire. I am placing date of hires for every 10% of the pilot group at CHQ. Would someone from Shuttle please do the same?

Seniority#/DOH
1 / 11-28-1983
114 / 2-11-1999
228 / 3-23-2000
342 / 12-18-2000
456 / 7-26-2001
570 / 3-3-2003
684 / 10-17-2003
798 / 3-29-2004
912 / 7-9-2004
1026 / 11-30-2004
1140 / 3-3-2005

Last Captain bid, most junior captain slot awarded to 5/2003 DOH.
Thanks.
 
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I.P. Freley said:
AeroSlave,

With all due respect... If you've been at SA for "several years", you will not have anything close to "800" people ahead of you in line. If you've even been at SA for THREE years, and you assume DOH, you will have a seniority number no lower than about 500 (out of what will be, by the time this all happens, probably...1100? 1200?). If you're in the top 50% now, you are going to stay there.

A friend of mine was hired at CHQ in (I think) very late '02 and finished his captain IOE about a month ago... After putting off upgrade for several months to ensure a better choice of flying, so there are already people between him and "the bottom".

No, you won't be top o' the list by any stretch, but you're going to be in a fairly good position if you've been at SA for anything approaching the length of time you suggested in your post. RAH is still growing and your position will only get better. Keeping in mind the more senior Cap's at CHQ have already moved over to the 170, your position on the 145 list should be better still. Stay on the Saab as long as you can to keep your QOL (a relative term, I know) and by the time you "have to" bid the jet flying, bid the smallest jet you can (and the most convenient base) and your seniority will probably be pretty good.

A few of your comments suggests you could be "Old Shuttle". If so, your seniority will be pretty good indeed. Get on the 145 and you could conceivably have the kind of seniority that would keep you near the top of the list... Though if you ARE Old Shuttle, the pay raise won't be quite as dramatic as for the rest of the SA people.

If all of this happens as read, of course.
Click to expand...

You guys are talking like this is a done deal..."Dont bid the jet yet" etc....CAre to fill us in on details?
 
This is just a stretch and I'm in no way trying to stir anything up...just a "what if".

There's a lot of talk of SA merging with CHQ, but here's the what if...

"IF" SA becomes part of REP with the 170s (all of our Saabs are going back in the near future), would there even be this problem since CHQ with their scope and fines "should" remain flying the <50 seat acft?

I know CHQ aircrews are manning the 170s now, but if REP needs SA's cert and we merge with them, would the CHQ guys go back to their 145s, and would SA aircrews ("now"(hypothetically) flying for REP) be the new crews? Or will we really become the "family" that we've always been teased with (and forgotten up until now...see: red headed step child)?

I'm really just curious. No harm, no foul.:)
 
I THINK if the merger happens the plan would be to give United the 6 month termination notice on the Saabs and seat lock all the us Shuttle guys/girls in the Saabs until they go away. Since I don't think United would stop flying all 9 Saabs at the same time, the more senior people could bid off the Saab earlier.

What I am curious about is after that. Since we would be on one seniority list could a Shuttle guy/girl bid to fly the 145 because there was a 145 base near his/her house? Or would they have to fly the 170?
 
Weasel,

CHQ CONTRACT
SCOPE (PAGE 1.2, PARAGRAPH 2)

"...all present and future flying...by the company, the company's parent or any subsidiary...SHALL BE PERFORMED BY THE PILOTS ON THE CHAUTAUQUA AIRLINES PILOT'S SYSTEM SENIORITY LIST..."
 

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