Shoulder-fired missiles

[Rush Limbaugh]

"We're not talking SA-7s or other serious surface-to-air missiles, but shoulder-fired weapons"

VFR on Top, an SA-7 is a MANPAD. You may be thinking of the SA-6 or SA-8 which are both more "serious" than a MANPAD.

"As for what to do if you see a missile launched at you, you can do what the military teaches their pilots to do. Immediately roll into the missile and pull back until your flight path is tangent to the missile's. At the same time, go to max power and try to build as much speed as you can. If you have the altitude, you can roll more than 90 degrees and pull to bring the nose below the horizon. That will let you build speed faster, and will mask the ACM exhaust ports on your belly to reduce your heat signature. By placing your flight path tangent to the missile's flight path, you will be forcing it to make as sharp a turn as possible to track you, maximizing the chance it will pass behind you."

Eagle RJ, where did you pick up that bit of information? While it's entertaining reading, it isn't exactly a good defense for an airliner. If you see a MANPAD launch, you will have enough time to say "Oh my God is that a missile lau...." The best thing for an airliner to do is nothing. If the missile hits, keep the airplane in the air and handle any failures you may have. If you try your MANPAD threat reaction, you'll be getting a left fire light just before you hit the ground. You will have put your jet in an unrecoverable situation for no reason.

My (uneducated) guess is that if terrorists start shooting at US airliners, the pilots will hear about it from ATC or they'll find out when they land at their destination. Don't worry about the threat. If it happens to you and the missile hits the airplane, you'll land and return home a hero, and then the Today Show, Leno, Letterman, Oprah and Dr. Phil won't leave you alone (although Dr. Phil will be bothering you for a different reason).

 

[doog]

The war on terrorism is about as futile as the war on drugs. No matter how vigilent we are in policing and punishing, there will still be no way to stop it.

We should instead focus our attention on eliminating the cause. Think about it-- who among you would not be willing to fight and die for your country if China were to establish a settlement on US soil, put us in refugee camps, halt our water suply, build settlements on our land, deny us any right to self determination... and then call us terrorists for fighting back the only way we can... with stones and our own flesh. This is what the Arab world believes is happening in palenstine, funded by the all powerful USA with yours and mine tax $.

I agree with Mar... stop funding this maddness. Change our foreign policy. Stop vilifying different cultures. Every country on earth does not have to be as "free" as the USA. Lets mind our own, take care of our own, and not turn the world into the next Israel. If we do this we won't need to spy on our neighbors and give up our own personal rights.

Lets not be so eager to have our fine men and women in uniform protect our freedom abroad, yet give it up so readily at home. It is not necessary.

 

[Typhoon1244]

We're not talking SA-7s or other serious surface-to-air missiles, but shoulder-fired weapons. One would certainly FOD out an engine, and maybe even blow it off its mounts, but I don't think it'd bring a CRJ down by itself.

Uh, sir, the SA-7 is a shoulder-fired heat-seeking missile with a 1.15 kilogram high-explosive warhead...the Soviet equivalent to our Redeye or Stinger. It is serious, and it is what we're talking about. Please don't challenge me on weapon ID again.

And come and let me show you around the APU compartment of a CRJ sometime...then tell me whether you think 1.15 kg of HE would take my tail off.

Guys and girls, I'm not sitting around biting my nails about this. I'm going to go on flying my trips and enjoying my career. What irritates me is that, instead of telling us that they're going to stop these things from entering the country, the government's response to this threat has been to tell us "y'all be careful now, y'hear?"

 

[frqntflyr]

I agree with Mar... stop funding this maddness. Change our foreign policy. Stop vilifying different cultures. Every country on earth does not have to be as "free" as the USA. Lets mind our own, take care of our own, and not turn the world into the next Israel. If we do this we won't need to spy on our neighbors and give up our own personal rights.

Lets not be so eager to have our fine men and women in uniform protect our freedom abroad, yet give it up so readily at home. It is not necessary.

Hmmm that sounds interesting. Maybe the largest superpower in the world should just ignore the rest of the world and make sure everything at home is just peachy. Ignorance is bliss right?? Bottom line is that Israel is a shining light of democracy and US values in the midst of turmoil, dictatorship, and terrorism. Many of our men have died in the past fighting for FREEDOM. Foreign and domestic.
Here's a news flash for you guys... If we did things exactly like you suggest, do you honestly think that the 'former' terrorists and us would hold hands and dance around. Ummm NO! They hate us, they hate our freedom, they hate our religions, and everything else that is american.
Maybe now you'll realize the importance of supporting our fellow freedom loving countries.....Israel included! But probably not.

 

[altimaklr]

Huh? Who'd bother shooting at a little CRJ anyways?

If I was a terrorist, I'd go after American Airlines heavy metal, etc... Lets hope they don't go for the MD80's I guess, sounds like the planes with rear engines are most at risk.

 

[Snoopy58]

> I agree with Mar... stop funding this maddness. Change our foreign policy. Stop vilifying different cultures.

Any culture that approves of mass murder NEEDS and DESERVES to be vilified. To give tacit approval through silence is utter cowardice. The Palestinian terrorists regularly blow up Israeli civilians, which is every bit as barbaric as the attacks on the WTC a year ago. Israel deserves every bit of support we give them, and more besides.

If you've always opposed US support of Israel, I disagree with you, but so be it. Just don't pretend that the recent events are what drive your conclusion or should drive anyone else in that direction. On the other hand, if you HAVE recently decided that we need to change our foreign policy, then the terrorists have successfully convinced you.

Good thing President Bush has more guts than that.

BTW, the ideal target for an older MANPAD like the SA-7 would be an older, low-bypass jet engine. The high bypass fans on the really big iron these days have so much cool air mixing with the hot exhaust that their signature will be less than what a JT8D or something similar would put out.

From a damage standpoint, the small warhead can probably take out an engine & damage whatever is close by, but obviously losing one engine at a couple hundred feet shouldn't bring down any airliner by itself. My concern would be on a jet like an older DC9, where you have both engines close together, producing essentially a single heat source for the seeker to track, and somewhat vulnerable to blast from the missile and shrapnel from a disintegrating turbine on the other engine.

The psychological damage of "a domestic airliner shot down" would be far beyond the actual numbers of people involved. Nobody would rely on "the safety of a high bypass turbofan mounted on the wing" in the midst of the hysteria... it would be an awful shock to the airline industry.

 

[mar]

Tacit approval of "evil-doers"

Snoopdog--My good man. You're loosing this argument because you're falling back into useless rhetoric:

"Any culture that approves of mass murder NEEDS and DESERVES to be vilified. To give tacit approval through silence is utter cowardice."

You mean, like our silence towards the Russians and Chechnya;

or, like our silence towards China and Taiwan?

Maybe you mean the deafening silence of the US Govt towards the Mexican govt and the state of Chiapas?

Or the Chilean govt and the 'disappeared ones'?

Or the Chinese govt (again!) and Tibet?

Let's see there's also Iraq and Kurds (and don't kid yourself here, that's not why we're going there. Back when Iraq was the good guy and Iran was the bad guy America couldn't give two fistfulls about the Kurdish people.)

So you get my point. You see, there's a lot of misery to go around.

It's always problematic to perch yourself on top of really abstract concepts with no idea how it'll play out in the real world.

Israel is *hardly* the victim here. They just happen to be centrally located in a very strategic part of the world right now and are thus the beneficiaries of our tax dollars.

How lovely for them the Holy Land wasn't located in Antarctica.

Imagine what sort of things could happen in your state if the Federal govt literally threw billions of dollars in your direction every year.

Oh nevermind, that might resemble a socialist utopia, with goddless commies and all of that.

Yes, I think I'd much rather send all of that money to a foreign country that survives by pushing people out.

Nice. Real nice.

 

[Snoopy58]

You're right, Mar, there's lots of evil in the world, and we can't fix it all. Doesn't mean it's all therefore morally equivalent.

As for your examples, the Chechyn terrorists wanted to get attention by kidnapping a theater full of people -- whom they would have murdered. We condemned them. The Russians did what they thought best to save as many of the hostages as they could. Not pretty, nor perfect, but a different league from the evil that the terrorists perpetrated. What would you have had us do?

Taiwan/China... don't recall either country hijacking aircraft & killing thousands of innocent Americans lately. Tibet neither. Saints? Nope, not a bit. Making mass murder of civilians their chosen instrument of national policy? No.

Mexico/Chiapas... same deal. Bad stuff going on there (and about a zillion other places you can name), you bet. But nothing like the daily homicide bombings that the palestinian terrorists carry out, nor the mass murder of 9/11/01.

Or Iraq and the Kurds... hmmm, we set up the northern no-fly zone to protect those Kurds, iirc. Or does ANY instance of US inaction or weak response at any point in recent history require that we ignore EVERY atrocity now?

We can't help everybody out, but that fact doesn't mean we abandon our friends (i.e. Israel) who are fighting the same terrorist evils that we are. And we darned sure don't abandon them BECAUSE of the terrorist evils, as Mar & doog would have us do.

 

[chawbein]

D@mned, Dirty Brits....

 

[PilotoHalcon]

Subject: Subject: Should there be racial profiling
in airport
screenings?

Please pause a moment, reflect back, and take the
following Multiple
Choice
test. (The events are actual cuts from past history.
They actually
happened.
Do you remember?)

1. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were
kidnapped and massacred
by:

a. Olga Korbut
b. Sitting Bull
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

2. In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over
by:
a. Lost Norwegians
b. Elvis
c. A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

3. During the 1980's, a number of Americans were
kidnapped in Lebanon
by:
a. John Dillinger
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

4. In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was
blown up by:
a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

5. In 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was
hijacked and a 70 year old
American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard
in his wheelchair
by:
a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

6. In 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens,
and a U.S. Navy diver
trying to rescue passengers was murdered by:
a. Captain Kidd
b. Charles Lindbergh
c. Mother Teresa
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

7. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

8. In 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the
first time by:
a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

9. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania
were bombed by:
a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's
women problems
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

10. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two
were used as missiles
to
take out the World Trade Center and of the remaining
two, one crashed
into
the US Pentagon and the other was diverted to a
crash by the passengers.
Thousands of people were killed by:
a. Bugs Bunny, Wile E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer
Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

11. In 2002, the United States fought a war in
Afghanistan against:
a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

12. In 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and
murdered by:
a. Bonnie and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d. Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of
17 and 40

Nope, .....I really don't see a pattern here to
justify racial
profiling,
do
you?

So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone,
particularly fanatics
intent
on killing us, airport security screeners will no
longer be allowed to
profile certain people. They must conduct random
searches of 80-year-old
women, little kids, airline
pilots with proper identification, Secret Service
agents who are members
of
the President's security detail, 85-year old
Congressmen with metal
hips,
and Medal of Honor winning former Governors.



As the writer of the award winning story Forrest
Gump so aptly put it,
"Stupid is as stupid does!"

 

[Typhoon1244]

Huh? Who'd bother shooting at a little CRJ anyways?

Are you kidding? What's a terrorist's purpose? To generate terror.

Nobody's surprised when an intercontinental jumbo-jet is target by a terrorist group...but can you imagine what would happen if ATR's and RJ's started blowing up on the way to little out-of-the-way cities? Nobody would feel safe getting on a U.S. airliner anywhere!

If Al Queda ever decides to target smaller domestic airliners, our entire industry is in deep, deep trouble.

P.S. "Little" CRJ? C'mon, let's be more mature than that!

 

[Tref]

I think that anyone who truly believes that profiling is the answer needs to spend a few hours downtown OKC.

As far as the missles go... Don't worry, it'd only hurt for a second.

 

[PilotoHalcon]

Profiling is not THE answer but it is a leap in the right direction. And your point it well taken.
j

 

[doog]

Good post PilotoHalcon -

I agree, profiling for terorists is a good idea. I imagine a comprehensive database and algorythms would help greatly in the hunt for terrorists. Muslim male 17-40 - lets do it, add em to the database. Lets also add in hard line christian fundamentalists such as Tim McVey, jaded X marine muslim converts such as the recent sniper.

My problem is with a policy that seems only to increase their numbers.

As for sticking up for our pals, I'm all for it. But as long as I see stupid Israeli policy lead to further stupid tit for tat violence, I will encourage our government not to follow the same policy.

 

[flywithastick]

hard line christian fundamentalists such as Tim McVey

don't believe he was a hard-line Christian fundamentalist. I believe his motive was revenge for the federal government's cold blooded killing of US citizens and others at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

Several measures that would help in this situation, but IMO won't be seriously considered without another couple of NYC-class attacks.

racial and religous profiling

expulsion/deportation of non-citizens within the 17-40 male Muslum category

deport all illegal aliens

more extreme measures taken against surviving family members of terroists

control immigration