Should US majors follow Emirates lead?

[BigPappa]

You just didn't know how to handle him, that's all.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Military pilots should be exempt due to their exceptional training and types of high performance a/c flown.

Ya know brown I usually respect your opinion however this one is way off the mark. Yes military pilots recieve incredible top notch training. That is not something many would disagree with. However if you think for example an F-16 driver would mesh as smoothly into the Major airline world easier than a crj-700 captain that has been in and out of the busiest airports in the country day in and day out for years you are crazy.

How would a military guy who has never been to ATL be better than a guy who has been there three thousand times flying under said airlines colors. A guy who has never delt with pissed passengers, a flight attendant, catering, ops, ********************ty rampers, gate changes, ramp changes, Korry 3 arrivals, 3 hour ground stops, 42 people on clearance freqs., never looked at a 121 reg. etc. etc. you get my point

Sure its amazing that a guy can put a bomb in a 3rd story window from FL250 while going mach .9, or go 500kts at 26 feet over mountainous terrain, or find a solitary tank in the middle of the desert to strafe, but this does not automatically make him a better airline candidate. Maybe he is, but maybe he isn't.

Dealing in absolutes is never the right way to go about life.

 

[Capt10Matt]

Here's a thought, when I was instructing, I was with a company that dealt only with foreign asian airlines. The ANA newhires we trained from zero hours to 250 flew are immediately placed into the right seat of the 747 or 777 after their ground/sim training (mind you they stay there for 10 years).

Not to say that I would want to fly as a CA with any one of these guys, especially when they're new, but as far as safety is concerned, ANA has been doing this for a LONG time and it seems to be working just fine.

That being said, aircraft weight/size has no relevance on the ability to be trained as long as the training is adequate and complete. The problem is rooting in schools that aren't providing adequate training. Even more importantly, it's clear that some pilots haven't had enough eye-opening experiences to prepare them for the left seat.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Browntothebone]

Ya know brown I usually respect your opinion however this one is way off the mark. Yes military pilots recieve incredible top notch training. That is not something many would disagree with. However if you think for example an F-16 driver would mesh as smoothly into the Major airline world easier than a crj-700 captain that has been in and out of the busiest airports in the country day in and day out for years you are crazy.

How would a military guy who has never been to ATL be better than a guy who has been there three thousand times flying under said airlines colors. A guy who has never delt with pissed passengers, a flight attendant, catering, ops, ********************ty rampers, gate changes, ramp changes, Korry 3 arrivals, 3 hour ground stops, 42 people on clearance freqs., never looked at a 121 reg. etc. etc. you get my point

Sure its amazing that a guy can put a bomb in a 3rd story window from FL250 while going mach .9, or go 500kts at 26 feet over mountainous terrain, or find a solitary tank in the middle of the desert to strafe, but this does not automatically make him a better airline candidate. Maybe he is, but maybe he isn't.

Dealing in absolutes is never the right way to go about life.

All the stuff you commented about can easily be covered by briefing the new pilot prior to flying into ATL. What you failed to mention is that the military pilot will know what to do if they get into an inadvertent stick
shaker/pusher, unlike the typical regional pilot (Colgan).

Bottom line is that the typical military pilot is better trained than the typical regional pilot and whatever deficiencies the military guy has in regards to civilian ops can easily be taught to him in ground briefings, unlike the typical regional pilot who has basic deficiencies in airmanship.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

Your training is only the first two bits in your bank account Sully referred to, it's the next five, ten, fifteen years where large deposits are made. There is no one in the world better at what they do than the U.S. Military, but none of their experience is relevant to the type of flying airlines do. A regional captain will have a far easier transition to flying for a legacy than a military pilot, but both will be sitting next to a very senior captain for a very long time before they upgrade. After a short time the advantage would disappear. An airline career will encompass 20 years or more and when you reach retirement it won't have mattered where you received your initial training. Hire the individual based on personal qualities. Hiring minimums are nothing more than a way of limiting the pool of potential candidates.

 

[Speedtape]

I guess standards always change in a down economy. When hiring starts again in the U.S. at the majors, Emirates will have to revert to an Ab-initio program, just like the regionals! It's about 2 years away!

 

[doh]

All the stuff you commented about can easily be covered by briefing the new pilot prior to flying into ATL. What you failed to mention is that the military pilot will know what to do if they get into an inadvertent stick
shaker/pusher, unlike the typical regional pilot (Colgan).

Bottom line is that the typical military pilot is better trained than the typical regional pilot and whatever deficiencies the military guy has in regards to civilian ops can easily be taught to him in ground briefings, unlike the typical regional pilot who has basic deficiencies in airmanship.

You are absolutely correct! Flying into CVG at dusk, in the haze, my FO, a former F16 pilot, knew exactly what to do when he got too slow. At stick shaker, he gave me the airplane! I stabilised us and landed. He never even had the airport until we turned final. I have no idea what the typical 'regional FO would have done as none of them ever got so preoccupied with finding the airport that they forgot to fly the airplane. But that was what the fighter jock did. Again, you're right, giving the airplane to the pilot who knows what the F he is doing is the proper course of action.

 

[johnpeace]

Military guys should be exempt.

As should minorities and women, no doubt.

 

[Browntothebone]

You are absolutely correct! Flying into CVG at dusk, in the haze, my FO, a former F16 pilot, knew exactly what to do when he got too slow. At stick shaker, he gave me the airplane! I stabilised us and landed. He never even had the airport until we turned final. I have no idea what the typical 'regional FO would have done as none of them ever got so preoccupied with finding the airport that they forgot to fly the airplane. But that was what the fighter jock did. Again, you're right, giving the airplane to the pilot who knows what the F he is doing is the proper course of action.

What were you doing that you let him get that slow? Sounds like you as PM screwed up as much as the PF.

 

[agonyairfo]

Some pilots get it and some don't. (I put myself in the second category). If your comfortable with an airplane, understand basic mechanical principles, try to improve, and have been at it for more than a few years, I think you can be trained to fly anything.

 

[$$$4nothin]

All the stuff you commented about can easily be covered by briefing the new pilot prior to flying into ATL. What you failed to mention is that the military pilot will know what to do if they get into an inadvertent stick
shaker/pusher, unlike the typical regional pilot (Colgan).

Bottom line is that the typical military pilot is better trained than the typical regional pilot and whatever deficiencies the military guy has in regards to civilian ops can easily be taught to him in ground briefings, unlike the typical regional pilot who has basic deficiencies in airmanship.

So you are telling me a typical regional captain who has had 5-30 PC's won't know what to do when you get a stick shaker/pusher. Look we can both sit here and site a million different crashes. I can think of a former friend of the family who made some poor decisions in a B-52, but that doesn't make military pilots worse than RJ pilots and it likewise doesn't make them anybetter.

A military pilot is better trained to do what they are supposed to do, but you know as well as I do that ground breifings can't even come close to prepareing a pilot for all the stuff they have to deal with on the line. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Especially when that ground briefing is day 8 hour 6 of Idoc ground school. Or wait is the 20 year captain who just met him supposed to brief him on everything before the flight that is supposed to leave on time in 22 minutes.

 

[doh]

Brownie, I gave him a warning. "Watch your airspeed" was met with "I got it". Since he'd been giving me the superior attitude for three days, I just waited for it to happen after that. Then the PM took the airplane and made it happen. Not much else I could do with that attitude.

 

[WSurf]

These military C-5 Guys expect the engineer sat back and watched this happen in Dover. DE. Well trained pilots forget which engine has failed, watch the Power Levers and N1. Well trained pilots that were confused. S&^T Happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5xTmmPbsY

 

[pilotyip]

Experience with helo pilots

Fixed wing only. Helo or UAV only should have to get the time somewhere.

Someone has to figure out why uninformed management knuckleheads don't view a multi-crew Captain time in an advanced IFR helo like the H-60, H-46, H-53 or H-47 as not real flight time. However, PIC in a VFR only C-150 in the traffic pattern is the breakfast of champions for an airline career by those who set hard fixed wing limits and ignore helo time in total time. Why are most management and insurance company’s sooooo waaaayyyy out of touch with reality? Ops I am sorry I was management bashing again. Over the years I worked at my airline I had one training failure with a military trained helo driver. That 1 of 47, and the civilian only fixed wing average 1500 hours, we had 27 training failures. That was 27 out 257. Very trainable, used to SOP, and well screened before started military training. Now watching the first night in the sim going from 0-200 in 60 seconds and trying to get the sim off the ground by raising the right arm rest, that was fun. However by period #3 everyone was above average.

 

[RJLoser]

These military C-5 Guys expect the engineer sat back and watched this happen in Dover. DE. Well trained pilots forget which engine has failed, watch the Power Levers and N1. Well trained pilots that were confused. S&^T Happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fI5xTmmPbsY

Sorry if I am stating the obvious, I don't know the accident details.

Did I see this correct: #2 was the bad engine. when they brought in power they added power on #2 and kept #3 at idle instead of #2? (As well as the flap issue)

 

[WSurf]

Sorry if I am stating the obvious, I don't know the accident details.

Did I see this correct: #2 was the bad engine. when they brought in power they added power on #2 and kept #3 at idle instead of #2? (As well as the flap issue)

Correct.

 

[Nevets]

What were you doing that you let him get that slow? Sounds like you as PM screwed up as much as the PF.

What about the T6 or PC21 or King Air guys?

 

[dh82dvr]

I guess then you will end up with all PFTs. Go buy a type and some time and send in your resume.

 

[laserman2431]

My experience has been that military guys have a harder time in initial training at a regional but they can usually pick it up after that.

I think the real advantage to hiring military guys is that their training is more of a "screening" process. I don't think you can be mediocre and make it through military flight training.

I think the military pilots will be a known quantity in terms of innate ability. Whereas a CFI to regional FO to regional CA can make it through with only average gray matter ability.

The biggest challenge for some military pilots who go to part 121 is adapting to the more collegial atmosphere in the cockpit at a part 121 operation. Standard part 121 flights usually do not include a post operation debrief with discussion about what could have been done better during the flight.

As for the example of the military guy who got the shaker, i guess it could happen to anyone. The fact that he was former mil should not be considered an indictment on all military pilots.

 

[planejockey]

another job oportunity for RAH guys...soon they will take over!