Should it not be ALPA's Responsibility?

[C-141/C-5]

C-141,

Our jobs at the majors are to enforce scope to protect our flying and the future flying of those who are at the regionals. The regionals guys jobs are to bring up the pay and work rules at their end. Its not their choice when management brings on a 90 seat jet and tells them to fly it. It is our choice not to let that flying go.

I understand that the majors have scope, but since most of them have given them up Regionals are flying what used to be mainline flying and they are doing so by forcing the hand to the pilots with little or no extra compensation. The uneducated pilot from an university sees this and thinks great I get to fly a Big jet withou realizing the consequences. Less jobs at the mainline means you are stuck at the regional forever and you are lowering the bar.

 

[Freight Dog]

Tejas... it's funny you should mention that. APA is fighting the fight that ALPA should be fighting.

But then again, ALPA has been castrated over the last few years so instead of fighting any NPRM's, they start talking implementation. Watch foreign ownership, cabotage and all that garbage happen right in front of our noses and then ALPA joining in with their Pink Ribbon Panels to discuss implementations.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tejas... it's funny you should mention that. APA is fighting the fight that ALPA should be fighting.

But then again, ALPA has been castrated over the last few years so instead of fighting any NPRM's, they start talking implementation. Watch foreign ownership, cabotage and all that garbage happen right in front of our noses and then ALPA joining in with their Pink Ribbon Panels to discuss implementations.

Sounds like you got a plan on the tip of your tongue! Let's hear it!!

 

[Freight Dog]

If past actions are any indication, I'd say a Red Ribbon Panel (foreign ownership) and Pink Ribbon Panel (Cabotage) should follow along very quickly.

After all, we're being pragmatic about the whole thing and wouldn't want to piss anyone off.

If you're talking about Age 60, three words/one short acronym - Allied Pilots Association/APA.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If past actions are any indication, I'd say a Red Ribbon Panel (foreign ownership) and Pink Ribbon Panel (Cabotage) should follow along very quickly.

After all, we're being pragmatic about the whole thing and wouldn't want to piss anyone off.

If you're talking about Age 60, three words/one short acronym - Allied Pilots Association/APA.

How about a definitive plan.... tell us how you'd do what ALPA ins't..... I am interested....

 

[Freight Dog]

Let's see:

- Publicly oppose Blakey with regard to Age 60. (Not start some gay ribbon panel) I refer you to APA for guidance.

- Take the argument to the public through media campaign by telling them that by allowing this rule to pass, the public will unwillingly or unknowingly become a part of a safety experiment (only 1 pilot allowed over 60, why?). The current rule served us well for almost 50 years. Why chance it?

- Dispel the myth that older pilots are going to be replaced by inexperienced pilots as there is no shortage of qualified pilots in the U.S. Plenty of seasoned and experienced pilots available - refer you to almost 5 decades of this rule.

- Petition the FAA to ban foreign airline pilots over 60 from operating in the U.S. airspace.

.... just for starts.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

ALPA failure of age 60 defense

What could ALPA being doing about age 60 you ask Rez?

First of all ALPA could be advertising in the national press against age 60. ALPA could be getting equal time after every lopsided old retiring pilot complains about being forced into retirement on all the different media outlets.

ALPA could have made a statement at the Senate Science and Transportation Committee meeting in opposition to Ted Stevens (R-AK) the day S.65 was voted out of committee. Yet all that was heard that day was ALPA's silence and a pin dropping prior to the committee voice vote.

ALPA and YOU REZ could have influenced a vote against age 60 during the ARC committee's final report and forced a definitive vote on the issue to provide the FAA with guidance as the ARC committee was instructed to do. Instead you and the committee passed the buck and ducked for cover.

ALPA could be giving PAC money to those law makers opposed to any change to age 60.

ALPA could drop the crap with the age 60 education campaign that is nothing more than a front for ALPA's geezers who want an age 60 change.

ALPA could follow its constitutional mandate to uphold age 60. Stop any polling to the contrary, stop any communication trying to change age 60.

ALPA could use age 60 as a unifying issue with APA. ALPA could support APA's efforts. ALPA could make joint statements regarding age 60 with APA. ALPA could issue press releases in opposition to an age 60 change.

ALPA could influence ICAO changes and point out unsafe ICAO changes such as age 65. ICAO did not do a risk assessment study concerning age 65. That is irresponsible and ALPA could point that out so everyone knew it, over and over again.

ALPA could take FAA Administrator Marion Blakey to task as she only seems to know how to say,"people are living longer."

ALPA could have filled the Blue Ribbon Panel with a representative cross section of the 59% that voted to keep age 60 as it.

ALPA could have polled the furloughed pilots during their age 65 biased polling.

ALPA could grow a set and stand up to SWAPA on this issue.

And I could go on an on about what ALPA could do and refuses to do concerning age 60.

ALPA has their plan concerning age 60. ALPA is going to do nothing.

ALPA is going to let SWAPA do all the heavy lifting, stand by idly as age 60 changes, open all the contracts in the industry at the same time renegotiating every aspect required by the change, and again screw every individual ALPA pilot collectively during the upcoming recession and force another industry wide round of concessions.

The problem is I don't think the 59% of ALPA membership who have been directly screwed by the 41% of ALPA during the last five years will put up with another round of biased unfair dealings.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Just to emphasize, John Prater is for an age 60 change. It dove-tails perfectly in his plan to TAKE BACK OUR PROFESSION. Every airline contract will be forced to be changed after the law change.

Problem is he will be forcing ALPA to negotiate all new contracts during a recession.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Let's see:

- Publicly oppose Blakey with regard to Age 60. (Not start some gay ribbon panel) I refer you to APA for guidance.

And what would that accomplish? Being that age 65 is going to happen?.. I liken it to beating your head against the wall. Sure you may feel that you've been doing something, but what have you gained? besides the pain?

Note: you may believe that ALPA is not being politically effective with its current position, and that is your choice...

Do you fully understand the cause and effect? If so, explain. IOW all you maybe concered about it is the effect of Age 60 on YOU. However, ALPA maybe be looking at the effect it will have with global considerations on the entire US Pilot profession....

What is the point if you retire at Age 60 or 65 when you will be out of a job next year because of open skies...

- Take the argument to the public through media campaign by telling them that by allowing this rule to pass, the public will unwillingly or unknowingly become a part of a safety experiment (only 1 pilot allowed over 60, why?). The current rule served us well for almost 50 years. Why chance it?

The public doesn't give a damm about who flies them. An age 60 or 65 aged pilot. They don't care if you retire or keep flying. They don't care if you are replaced by a 25 year old kid. They just want to go where they want to go...

- Dispel the myth that older pilots are going to be replaced by inexperienced pilots as there is no shortage of qualified pilots in the U.S. Plenty of seasoned and experienced pilots available - refer you to almost 5 decades of this rule.

See the above reply.

- Petition the FAA to ban foreign airline pilots over 60 from operating in the U.S. airspace.

With Open Skies coming? Are you even aware of the multi faceted issues out there or are you only concerned with your age 60 issue? There is more to consider than just this...

.... just for starts.

OK...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What could ALPA being doing about age 60 you ask Rez?

First of all ALPA could be advertising in the national press against age 60. ALPA could be getting equal time after every lopsided old retiring pilot complains about being forced into retirement on all the different media outlets.

What interest does the traveling public or other poltiicians have with Age 60? Why would they care? Age 60 is about you, the individual...

ALPA could have made a statement at the Senate Science and Transportation Committee meeting in opposition to Ted Stevens (R-AK) the day S.65 was voted out of committee. Yet all that was heard that day was ALPA's silence and a pin dropping prior to the committee voice vote.

How effective would that be?

ALPA and YOU REZ could have influenced a vote against age 60 during the ARC committee's final report and forced a definitive vote on the issue to provide the FAA with guidance as the ARC committee was instructed to do. Instead you and the committee passed the buck and ducked for cover.

Whoa! I am a non party in Age 60. I see pro's and con's...

ALPA could be giving PAC money to those law makers opposed to any change to age 60.

What would the rate of return be?

ALPA could drop the crap with the age 60 education campaign that is nothing more than a front for ALPA's geezers who want an age 60 change.

A lack of empathy for your fellow pilot is self defeating...

ALPA could follow its constitutional mandate to uphold age 60. Stop any polling to the contrary, stop any communication trying to change age 60.

Maybe it is out of ALPA's hands. Recall ALPA doesn't control the law only influences it...

ALPA could use age 60 as a unifying issue with APA. ALPA could support APA's efforts. ALPA could make joint statements regarding age 60 with APA. ALPA could issue press releases in opposition to an age 60 change.

I like the common ground with the APA... Could the APA being for keeping the change becuase they don't have much to lose politically...

ALPA could influence ICAO changes and point out unsafe ICAO changes such as age 65. ICAO did not do a risk assessment study concerning age 65. That is irresponsible and ALPA could point that out so everyone knew it, over and over again.

Many ICAO nations have pilots flying past age 60.

ALPA could take FAA Administrator Marion Blakey to task as she only seems to know how to say,"people are living longer."

How could ALPA take her to task?

ALPA could have filled the Blue Ribbon Panel with a representative cross section of the 59% that voted to keep age 60 as it.

That is valid.

ALPA could have polled the furloughed pilots during their age 65 biased polling.

Ha! With only 30% of the eligible pilots particpating, I am not sure you get much more furloughed guys voting.... but maybe the out of work guys are more involved...

ALPA could grow a set and stand up to SWAPA on this issue.

Maybe ALPA wants SWAPA to join instead of just buying services from Herndon...

And I could go on an on about what ALPA could do and refuses to do concerning age 60.

Why don't you effectively argue why ALPA is taking its current position. Before you critize why not understand..

ALPA has their plan concerning age 60. ALPA is going to do nothing.

Maybe

ALPA is going to let SWAPA do all the heavy lifting, stand by idly as age 60 changes, open all the contracts in the industry at the same time renegotiating every aspect required by the change, and again screw every individual ALPA pilot collectively during the upcoming recession and force another industry wide round of concessions.

Maybe they will negotiate something effective for the entire profession.

The problem is I don't think the 59% of ALPA membership who have been directly screwed by the 41% of ALPA during the last five years will put up with another round of biased unfair dealings.

Either trust the ALPA leadership that they know where they are taking us on this ride (I doubt that... ) or man up.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Just to emphasize, John Prater is for an age 60 change. It dove-tails perfectly in his plan to TAKE BACK OUR PROFESSION. Every airline contract will be forced to be changed after the law change.

Problem is he will be forcing ALPA to negotiate all new contracts during a recession.

A recession?

 

[luckytohaveajob]

A recession?

That what Greenspan is predicting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070226/ap_on_bi_ge/hong_kong_us_greenspan

 

[Tejas-Jet]

- Take the argument to the public through media campaign by telling them that by allowing this rule to pass, the public will unwillingly or unknowingly become a part of a safety experiment

Yup...I can remember how that very same arguement was settled with the traveling public in 1983 during the CAL strike.

I remember very clearly, a gentleman asking me if CAL was really unsafe...I gave him my reasons why he shouldn't fly on CAL....he looked at me, grimaced, and said, "But I got a very good price on this ticket."

...2 months into it, and I knew frank lorenzo had won.

I learned the hard way...but the public really doesn't care about pilot issues.

Tejas

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Yup...I can remember how that very same arguement was settled with the traveling public in 1983 during the CAL strike.

I remember very clearly, a gentleman asking me if CAL was really unsafe...I gave him my reasons why he shouldn't fly on CAL....he looked at me, grimaced, and said, "But I got a very good price on this ticket."

...2 months into it, and I knew frank lorenzo had won.

I learned the hard way...but the public really doesn't care about pilot issues.

Tejas

The public cared when JetBlue was experimenting with the public. I understand your point.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The public cared when JetBlue was experimenting with the public. I understand your point.

Because they had already gotten their cheap ticket....

 

[Freight Dog]

Fact 1: Prater opposed the Age 60 rule.

Fact 2: Majority in ALPA voted to keep the rule in place.

Fact 3: Notice of Proposed Rule Making is not a law being passed.

Fact 4: Instead of following the wishes of the majority of its Membership, ALPA National with Prater at helm is more interested in "implementation" of the proposed rule, rather than fighting the proposed rule.

Fact 5: Allied Pilots Association is actively opposing the repeal of Age 60 rule at the direction of their membership which is what ALPA miserably failed to do.

The explanations you are offering illustrate the defeatist attitudes and show nothing more than the same concessionary pattern we've all seen.

Insert Foreign Ownership or Cabotage language instead of Age 60. If this is how ALPA will deal with idiocies coming from DOT/FAA/ICAO... we might as well fold our tent because this profession is sadly and rapidly becoming a dead-end sh*t job.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Fact 1: Prater opposed the Age 60 rule.

Fact 2: Majority in ALPA voted to keep the rule in place.

Fact 3: Notice of Proposed Rule Making is not a law being passed.

Fact 4: Instead of following the wishes of the majority of its Membership, ALPA National with Prater at helm is more interested in "implementation" of the proposed rule, rather than fighting the proposed rule.

Fact 5: Allied Pilots Association is actively opposing the repeal of Age 60 rule at the direction of their membership which is what ALPA miserably failed to do.

The explanations you are offering illustrate the defeatist attitudes and show nothing more than the same concessionary pattern we've all seen.

Insert Foreign Ownership or Cabotage language instead of Age 60. If this is how ALPA will deal with idiocies coming from DOT/FAA/ICAO... we might as well fold our tent because this profession is sadly and rapidly becoming a dead-end sh*t job.

The truth was well said Freight Dog.

ALPA will just keep telling us they are doing everything they can which is code for shut up and accept it.

An Age 60 change will force every ALPA contract to become amendable on the date of rule change. I am using the logic of basic contract law which would require a contract change if the laws governing the contract changed. The lawyers in the house could site the exact issue.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Either trust the ALPA leadership that they know where they are taking us on this ride (I doubt that... ) or man up.....

Looks like Rez has his doubts about ALPA too. What does man up mean Rez?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Fact 1: Prater opposed the Age 60 rule.

Change is here. Adapt or die. Maybe ALPA knows they will just waste political and financial resources.... fighting a losing battle...

Fact 2: Majority in ALPA voted to keep the rule in place.

And yet change is still occuring...

Fact 3: Notice of Proposed Rule Making is not a law being passed.

Agreed. Have you emailed your congressman? Passed a resolution at an LEC meeting? What is the point? If ALPA is going in one direction why call your congressman or pass a resolution? Maybe ALPA feels the same way on CapHill....

Fact 4: Instead of following the wishes of the majority of its Membership, ALPA National with Prater at helm is more interested in "implementation" of the proposed rule, rather than fighting the proposed rule.

Are you going to tell us why ALPA is going in this direction or are you just going to be pissed off....?

Fact 5: Allied Pilots Association is actively opposing the repeal of Age 60 rule at the direction of their membership which is what ALPA miserably failed to do.

Why is the APA for age 60 and ALPA not? Can you give logical reasoning..

The explanations you are offering illustrate the defeatist attitudes and show nothing more than the same concessionary pattern we've all seen.

No, I am open minded to what is going... you are just piised off that change is occuring and you are not comfortable with it...

Times change.... women get to vote, everyone gets civil rights and Age 60 changes... adapt or die..

Insert Foreign Ownership or Cabotage language instead of Age 60. If this is how ALPA will deal with idiocies coming from DOT/FAA/ICAO... we might as well fold our tent because this profession is sadly and rapidly becoming a dead-end sh*t job.

You have valid points.... but lets work each issue as it comes... ALPA and all transportation trade unions are dead set against open skies and foreign control....


Can age 60 be like flying a jet? A little CRM? Voice your concerns but when the leadership (PIC) makes his/her decision its time to get behind him and press forward... otherwise....

You are letting one issue be incredibly devisive.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Either trust the ALPA leadership that they know where they are taking us on this ride (I doubt that... ) or man up.....

Looks like Rez has his doubts about ALPA too. What does man up mean Rez?

See, you are reading what you want to see... to determined to debate than listen...

First....

The doubts I stated meant that I don't think you can trust the ALPA leadership in that they know what is going on behind the scenes on CapHill.

Man up means quit being divisive.... You've got a choice.. you can figure out what is really going on instead of just looking at this through a self intrests lens............

Second.. trying to discredit me does nothing for your Age 60 issue... stik to the issue man!!

 

[Tejas-Jet]

The public cared when JetBlue was experimenting with the public. I understand your point.

"experimenting"? What does that mean?

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Insert Foreign Ownership or Cabotage language instead of Age 60. If this is how ALPA will deal with idiocies coming from DOT/FAA/ICAO... we might as well fold our tent because this profession is sadly and rapidly becoming a dead-end sh*t job.

If you would have done some checking, you would find that ALPA has fought the battles on Foreign Ownership and Cabotage....and has been successful. Virgin America comes to mind.

But remember that Foreign Ownership and Cabotage aren't one time battles....every few years or so, another Washington D.C. know-it-all representative thinks this is a good idea and gets another bill going.

The people who are in favor of Cabotage/Foreign Ownership are making sure their checks are getting to their favorite representatives...too bad it seems the ALPA-PAC fund will be getting smaller for the next fight.

Tejas

 

[Falconjet]

Rez: Prater is the president of the union, not the Captain of ALPA. He is there to represent the membership, not support his own agenda while telling us to shut up because he knows better.

I would imagine that if a huge guy came up to you and said I am going to propose that I will bash your face in tomorrow. Would you simply say, ok, let me start finding out where a nice hospital is and take some time off from work?

Or would you maybe try to figure out a way to stop the guy from bashing your face in?

Yeah, I think you might try to stop the attack, not form a blue ribbon panel on how to find the best medical care after the beating.

The rape analogy is perfect for this proposed rule change. You sound like the rape counselors of old who recommended that the woman just sit back and make the best of it because it is inevitable, don't want to risk further harm by resisting. Of course most of those women ended up raped and dead. Everybody knows that you need to fight back with everything you've got, if for no other reason to provide better evidence that the act was indeed a rape.

Make no mistake, we are getting raped by our senior ALPA leadership and a small minority of the senior members.

I for one am not going to sit back and quietly make the best of it, I will continue to fight it until the day it happens and also demand the same from my union's "leadership".

FJ

 

[Freight Dog]

If you would have done some checking, you would find that ALPA has fought the battles on Foreign Ownership and Cabotage....and has been successful. Virgin America comes to mind.

But remember that Foreign Ownership and Cabotage aren't one time battles....every few years or so, another Washington D.C. know-it-all representative thinks this is a good idea and gets another bill going.

The people who are in favor of Cabotage/Foreign Ownership are making sure their checks are getting to their favorite representatives...too bad it seems the ALPA-PAC fund will be getting smaller for the next fight.

Tejas

That's right Tejas... just how they fought for Age 60.

But as Rez states... adapt or die because the change is coming.

Now do you see how f**ked up this is?

 

[Freight Dog]

You have valid points.... but lets work each issue as it comes... ALPA and all transportation trade unions are dead set against open skies and foreign control....


Can age 60 be like flying a jet? A little CRM? Voice your concerns but when the leadership (PIC) makes his/her decision its time to get behind him and press forward... otherwise....

You are letting one issue be incredibly devisive.....

Why are we deadset against open skies and foreign control when the general movement is towards globalization of everything? Isn't that the real change?

This whole age 60 thing is a safety experiment, not unlike the one that JetBlue did with their transcon turns, because while ICAO countries are suffering a genuine pilot shortage, in our country, it is driven by economic reasons of the senior pilots - the pilot shortage is not an issue in our country.

To apply your argument is like saying the change is coming... but we're gonna be selective in which change we'll fight and which change we'll embrace. Who makes that decision? ALPA membership spoke... and got hosed by our ALPA president.

Falconjet had a good example when comparing this to getting your face smashed or raped.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In order to beat your opponent you must understand your opponent. In this case, your opponent is Prater and Age 60......

No one here has said why Prater is not backing age 60. Until you can explain why Prater is going against the membership then you have no arguement, cause why Prater and ALPA is against Age 60 might be better than being for it. (please spare me emotional tirades of "Cause Prater is a jerk" or whatever....)

If you think Age 60 is the way to go then politically advocate it...

Falcon jet says he intends to fight it... ok..fine.. how...what are you going to do..... blah blah blah on FI doesn't do too much but satisfy emotional desires...

I am all for addressing your agenda.... if you can be successful in stopping age 60 from being changed I say good job and go for it...

But I still think in order to do so you need to understand why Prater and National are doing what they are doing....

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Rez: Prater is the president of the union, not the Captain of ALPA. He is there to represent the membership, not support his own agenda while telling us to shut up because he knows better.

I for one am not going to sit back and quietly make the best of it, I will continue to fight it until the day it happens and also demand the same from my union's "leadership".

Has John Prater actually used those words? Did he really tell the membership that? Has anyone on these boards gone to one of his roadshow meetings? You gotta think that this subject has been brought up at one of those meetings. How was it addressed? I strongly doubt that he used the words, "Shut up because I know better."

Exactly HOW are you going "to continue to fight this until the day it happens"? By doing what....???? Writing your congressman???

Has anyone yet even presented a recall motion at an LEC Meeting? Or is it all just talk and bluster?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Tejas-jet-

For some reason pilots want their careers to be like ovens-self cleaning...

They have developed thier expectation that they will retire at Age 60. In this incredibly dynamic industry I am not sure how valid expecting the status quo to remain ..is...

Lot's of guys expected thier retirements to remain intact...

Lots of guys expected thier manufacturing jobs to remain and not go overseas...

Guess what.. life is not fair.... Not sure if Grandpa was able to pass that on...but here it is again... life is not fair..

I am not really for age 60 changing either. I am at a regional and I don't want to wait another five years to get hired by a career carrier... but.. at the same time...

We switched hotels last week at my favorite overnight.. Initially I didn't like the idea of change cause I knew what to expect and I liked that hotel... however the new hotel has some nice things that the old hotel didn't... It took a week or two and while it isn't better it isn't worse either.. the new hotel is just different....

Adapt or die. Accept change cause it is going to happen...

And yes, foreign control may end oour careers and we'll have to find new careers... blame ALPA?

 

[Falconjet]

So, basically you are just saying lay back and take the azz reaming. Good for you. Sounds more like you are in favor of the change, and that is your right.

Don't try to tell those opposed that their efforts are wasted because Prater knows better and has the ear of the Administrator and its coming and there is nothing we can do.......blah blah blah blah blah.

That is all just smoke and mirrors for a guy protecting his own interests instead of carrying out the will of the majority.

FJ

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So, basically you are just saying lay back and take the azz reaming. Good for you. Sounds more like you are in favor of the change, and that is your right.

Don't try to tell those opposed that their efforts are wasted because Prater knows better and has the ear of the Administrator and its coming and there is nothing we can do.......blah blah blah blah blah.

That is all just smoke and mirrors for a guy protecting his own interests instead of carrying out the will of the majority.

FJ

C'mon Falcon.... you gotta reply....

You said you were going to fight it... How? What are you going to do?