Should it not be ALPA's Responsibility?

[C-141/C-5]

The industry is in a downward spiral and part of the blame has to exist on ALPA's inability to EDUCATE young future airline pilots on Management tactics, "Flying the shiny jet syndrome", lowering the bar, flying for scum bag operators, etc...

I feel ALPA has the obligation to travel to various flight schools (Universities, Flying Universities etc..) across the nation and educate future pilots on how the decisions that they will make upon graduation can directly effect their future and the future of the entire industry. I believe we are only as strong as the weakest link, so we must educate young pilots to further us as a whole.

Being an Airline pilot is a PROFESSION. It takes education, continual training, experience, and talent. We are not Bus Drivers. The sacrifices we make to put us in this position are in parallel to various other skilled traits. Respect your positon and your talents.

What do you think?

 

[sleeves]

It needs to be done. You should call your reps and volunteer.

 

[Mr Hat]

The industry is in a downward spiral and part of the blame has to exist on ALPA's inability to EDUCATE young future airline pilots on Management tactics, "Flying the shiny jet syndrome", lowering the bar, flying for scum bag operators, etc...

Blame ALPA......Look in the mirror and tell ALPA how bad they screwed up!

YOU are ALPA....When ALPA screws up, you screw up (just using you as an example).....I find it amazing when pilots want to point their fingers at ALPA when THEY are ALPA. We ALPA members have no body to blame but ourselves.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Blame ALPA......Look in the mirror and tell ALPA how bad they screwed up!

YOU are ALPA....When ALPA screws up, you screw up (just using you as an example).....I find it amazing when pilots want to point their fingers at ALPA when THEY are ALPA. We ALPA members have no body to blame but ourselves.

And blame ALPA national for allowing United ALPA, US Air ALPA, Northwest ALPA, and Delta ALPA to save failed companies at the expense of the profession.

We would not be in todays position if the ONE of the weak failed and allowed the rest to prosper. Sometimes sacrifices needed to be made for the greater good.

Pensions were holy ground ALPA national allowed the individual ALPA's to trample all over at the expense of all the retires and the future pilots.

Alaska ALPA got it right. APA got it right. Everyone else did not because of ALPA National.

 

[TWA Dude]

The way I see it the biggest problem with and for ALPA is the fact that we work for competing carriers. I see no solution.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

The industry is in a downward spiral and part of the blame has to exist on ALPA's inability to EDUCATE young future airline pilots on Management tactics

What do you think?

This industry is in a downward spiral because of individual ALPA members who refuse to get involved with their union. Individual ALPA members who do not take the time to learn about the issues. Individual ALPA members who voted in favor of concessionary contracts en masse.

But...this is a democratic organization. So the majority rules. The majority of voters voted in favor of those concessionary contracts...and thats what the minority ends up with too.

But as far as involvement....how many guys turn out at LEC meetings? It's been a long time for me but, is it still the usual 14 guys ? ...that vote on issues for the majority?

A few days ago on these boards, one guy suggested that he wasn't going to contribute to the ALPA-PAC anymore. Not one "rusted penny." OK...but I'll bet he'll be the first one complaining when an important issue doesn't go his way. Where his ALPA-PAC donation may have made a difference. Make no mistake, his management will continue to contribute to individual members of congress....even while he doesn't contribute to the ALPA-PAC.

Remember this...Age 60 may be the issue today....there will be other issues in the furure...will you jump in and take charge? Or will many of you continue to be content to let others shoulder the load?

Tejas

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The way I see it the biggest problem with and for ALPA is the fact that we work for competing carriers. I see no solution.

The first ALPA carriers all worked for competing companies and managed to make a profession out of the different jobs.

 

[C-141/C-5]

I agree, I think as a whole pilot's need to get more involved with ALPA. But don't point your finger at me when I don't even work for a carrier yet. I'm just an industry educated pilot about to take the step into civilian aviation.

Back to the original question! Do you not think ALPA needs to set up some sort of committee that travels to various flight schools and gives speeches about the industry?

I mean like anything if you can't find someone willing to work for crappy wages you must bring them up. If young pilots understand this then they will stay away from some of these companies which would force there hand to bring there wages up, which then allows legacies and other carriers to bring back the profession.

Or can ALPA not do this since they represent scumbag carriers aka MESA.

It just seems to me that ALPA really dosen't have our interest they just want more people to be ALPA members to get more money. If this statement wasn't true then they wouldn't represent the likes of MESA

 

[Falconjet]

This industry is in a downward spiral because of individual ALPA members who refuse to get involved with their union. Individual ALPA members who do not take the time to learn about the issues. Individual ALPA members who voted in favor of concessionary contracts en masse.

But...this is a democratic organization. So the majority rules. The majority of voters voted in favor of those concessionary contracts...and thats what the minority ends up with too.

Tejas

I disagree. Its because individual union members (and plenty of non members) refuse to support the will of the majority and advocate their own selfish interests by clamoring for a change to the age 60 rule.

That will inflict more damage on ALPA and the industry than anything else in the past 50 years.

How about those issues.

FJ

 

[Secret Squirrel]

I disagree. Its because individual union members (and plenty of non members) refuse to support the will of the majority and advocate their own selfish interests by clamoring for a change to the age 60 rule.

That will inflict more damage on ALPA and the industry than anything else in the past 50 years.

How about those issues.

FJ

A truer statement has not been made. But how about selling out scope for larger airplanes to be flown at regional airlines. Started with the 50 seat jet. Changed the airline industry forever. And they continue to do it for larger and larger airplanes. And now they point their finger at the regional pilots for bringing down the industry. You are just ashamed at the quagmire you have created and trying to find someone to blame.

 

[PCL_128]

Back to the original question! Do you not think ALPA needs to set up some sort of committee that travels to various flight schools and gives speeches about the industry?

ALPA already does this. ALPA goes to career fairs at various universities (such as ERAU and UND) and talks with the students about the state of the industry, the importance of unions, etc... There is talk of expanding this role and working with universities to allow us to speak directly to the classes instead of just buying a booth at the career fairs, but it will be difficult to get the schools to go along with that.

 

[C-141/C-5]

ALPA already does this. ALPA goes to career fairs at various universities (such as ERAU and UND) and talks with the students about the state of the industry, the importance of unions, etc... There is talk of expanding this role and working with universities to allow us to speak directly to the classes instead of just buying a booth at the career fairs, but it will be difficult to get the schools to go along with that.

Thanks for the post. I think it'll be easier than you expect. Most Universities have professional aviation fraternities that are always looking for guest speakers. Alpha Etha Rho for instance. I think it would be very beneficial if ALPA alots more time and money into this endeveaour. We must bring the bottome up to bring the top up. Possibly mandating a Part 121 reg for minimum time prior to hiring. The ATP has a min time. This way the pilots who finnally meet the mins have already made many sacrifices then they would look for the best job not just the one that will hire.

 

[TWA Dude]

The first ALPA carriers all worked for competing companies and managed to make a profession out of the different jobs.

True, but you can't compare the deep past and fully-regulated era with what we have now. And don't forget the regionals which get to compete not only with each other but with their own codeshare parters. There's just too many conflicts of interest.

 

[Whataburger]

The industry is in a downward spiral and part of the blame has to exist on ALPA's inability to EDUCATE young future airline pilots on Management tactics, "Flying the shiny jet syndrome", lowering the bar, flying for scum bag operators, etc...

I feel ALPA has the obligation to travel to various flight schools (Universities, Flying Universities etc..) across the nation and educate future pilots on how the decisions that they will make upon graduation can directly effect their future and the future of the entire industry. I believe we are only as strong as the weakest link, so we must educate young pilots to further us as a whole.

Being an Airline pilot is a PROFESSION. It takes education, continual training, experience, and talent. We are not Bus Drivers. The sacrifices we make to put us in this position are in parallel to various other skilled traits. Respect your positon and your talents.

What do you think?

I think ALPA should get its house in order before they go tell anyone else how to run theirs. I dont believe a room of 50 hungover college students with $80,000 in debt each is gonna give a damn about what alpa has to say. Is alpa gonna put up a graph on the wonderful things it's done for the industry in the last 5 years? What's alpa gonna do, tell them to flight instruct for 3,000 hours so that the senior dudes at airline X can make more money? I think that a general class held in Herndon about selflessness and growing a sack would help alpa out more. You claim to be "industry educated," but if you had to come up paying for flying, you would fly anything with wings, motors and a Hobbs meter on it for very little pay. It's how it works. The guys/gals comming up should do the same thing we were all taught - Don't cross a picket line. That's it.

Ex alpo communication chairman, scheduling chairman, LEC vice chair, and Ex LEC FO rep. So yes, I did get involved in that hideous operation.

 

[PilotGeek]

The first ALPA carriers all worked for competing companies and managed to make a profession out of the different jobs.

The first ALPA carriers were more of a cartel than competing companies. In the age of deregulation we need to make competion work for us. A national seniority list would be a step in that direction.

 

[C-141/C-5]

I think ALPA should get its house in order before they go tell anyone else how to run theirs. I dont believe a room of 50 hungover college students with $80,000 in debt each is gonna give a dang about what alpa has to say. Is alpa gonna put up a graph on the wonderful things it's done for the industry in the last 5 years? What's alpa gonna do, tell them to flight instruct for 3,000 hours so that the senior dudes at airline X can make more money? I think that a general class held in Herndon about selflessness and growing a sack would help alpa out more. You claim to be "industry educated," but if you had to come up paying for flying, you would fly anything with wings, motors and a Hobbs meter on it for very little pay. It's how it works. The guys/gals comming up should do the same thing we were all taught - Don't cross a picket line. That's it.

Ex alpo communication chairman, scheduling chairman, LEC vice chair, and Ex LEC FO rep. So yes, I did get involved in that hideous operation.

Sorry Bubba, I went to a University with a flight school and got all my ratings there. I was a CFI I got paid $10 an hour only when I flew. I know both sides of the aviation spectrum and yes I do believe those hung over college students do give a crap. I was one of them that's why I pursued a job in the Air Force Reserves flying C-141C and now C-5. I was educated and did not lower the bar. It only takes a hand full of students who give a crap to sit around the flight planning table to discourage other students from applying to scumbag outfits. Peer pressure at that age is a strong. Give these students the opportunity to make that decision, but let's educate them. Right now all they hear is come to this school in 6 months you'll be flying a RJ with so and so. They don't have a full understanding on both sides. Calm you hostility and work towards making the industry better. Don't close your eyes to the truth.

 

[B6Driver]

"The first ALPA carriers were more of a cartel than competing companies. In the age of deregulation we need to make competion work for us. A national seniority list would be a step in that direction."

Never gunna happen!
The have's never want to concede any edge they might have to the have-not's. Always was and always will be!
I can't figure out just who is the have's in this day in age?

 

[BoilerUP]

Capt. Frank Mayne was head of the ALPA Education Committee for many years, if I recall correctly. I saw him two or three times a year at Purdue and at every NIFA SAFECON event I attended. Very articulate man, great with college kids and could "teach" things while having a class full of kids looking in awe at him.

 

[PCL_128]

Capt. Frank Mayne was head of the ALPA Education Committee for many years, if I recall correctly. I saw him two or three times a year at Purdue and at every NIFA SAFECON event I attended. Very articulate man, great with college kids and could "teach" things while having a class full of kids looking in awe at him.

Correct. Captain Mayne received ALPA's highest honor, the Dave Behnke award, at the BOD meeting last year for his tireless work for the Association for decades. He is now retired from Delta.

 

[Freight Dog]

A few days ago on these boards, one guy suggested that he wasn't going to contribute to the ALPA-PAC anymore. Not one "rusted penny." OK...but I'll bet he'll be the first one complaining when an important issue doesn't go his way. Where his ALPA-PAC donation may have made a difference. Make no mistake, his management will continue to contribute to individual members of congress....even while he doesn't contribute to the ALPA-PAC.

That would be me Tejas, and you would lose your bet. True, I won't give a rusted penny to ALPA-PAC anymore. That's right. I attend our meetings regularly, I participate, I regularly offer feedback to my reps; offer to and do help with any issues.

What you won't see is me giving another rusted penny to ALPA-PAC because I feel that Prater does NOT represent the interests of the majority. His first thing in the office was the nudge-nudge-wink-wink opposition to Age 60 hence the NPRM within the first month of him in the office, and that nudge-nudge-wink-wink opposition was evident in his reaction to it. Instead of strong opposition as directed by the majority in ALPA, he formed the implementation committee. I don't know about you, but that sounds mighty French to me, especially when you look at APA's reaction to the same news and the actions they have taken.

If anything, I'll send a donation to APA-PAC as a friend. At least they represent the interests of the majority of their pilots.

 

[Whataburger]

Sorry Bubba, I went to a University with a flight school and got all my ratings there. I was a CFI I got paid $10 an hour only when I flew. I know both sides of the aviation spectrum and yes I do believe those hung over college students do give a crap. I was one of them that's why I pursued a job in the Air Force Reserves flying C-141C and now C-5. I was educated and did not lower the bar. It only takes a hand full of students who give a crap to sit around the flight planning table to discourage other students from applying to scumbag outfits. Peer pressure at that age is a strong. Give these students the opportunity to make that decision, but let's educate them. Right now all they hear is come to this school in 6 months you'll be flying a RJ with so and so. They don't have a full understanding on both sides. Calm you hostility and work towards making the industry better. Don't close your eyes to the truth.

So using your example I should not have instructed at Purdue for $5.50 an hour because there were $10/hr jobs out there? I have no hostility, but I do have an opinion. I think the right decision for the students is for them to get the best job they can with their qualifications. Fortunetly for them right now, their qualifications allow them to fly a regional jet. Possibly you should lobby the air carriers to raise their mins.
Never saw an alpa rep at PU. They probably did not want to taint our young minds with the garbage that alpa spews. In the last 5 years alpa's teeth have been pulled.

 

[Whataburger]

Capt. Frank Mayne was head of the ALPA Education Committee for many years, if I recall correctly. I saw him two or three times a year at Purdue and at every NIFA SAFECON event I attended. Very articulate man, great with college kids and could "teach" things while having a class full of kids looking in awe at him.

Most college kids, including myself, looked at awe at anyone who'd flown anything bigger than a Dutchess outside the state if IN.

 

[BoilerUP]

Most college kids, including myself, looked at awe at anyone who'd flown anything bigger than a Dutchess outside the state if IN.

Undoubtedly...but that's not in question!

 

[C-141/C-5]

So using your example I should not have instructed at Purdue for $5.50 an hour because there were $10/hr jobs out there? I have no hostility, but I do have an opinion. I think the right decision for the students is for them to get the best job they can with their qualifications. Fortunetly for them right now, their qualifications allow them to fly a regional jet. Possibly you should lobby the air carriers to raise their mins.
Never saw an alpa rep at PU. They probably did not want to taint our young minds with the garbage that alpa spews. In the last 5 years alpa's teeth have been pulled.

I agree as I posted earlier I think all 121 carriers need to have a FAA mandated minimum. I think an having an ATP is a great start. This way they would have at least 1500 TT and have met the PTS standards for the certificate. This would cause an increase in pilot negotiating (supply/demand), increase in safety, and respect instilled in the profession.

Obviously, Purdue is one of the leading Flight Universities, but for every one there are hundreds more that get no attention whatsoever. We need to get the word out. You are making my point so much clearer. The majority of Aviation students have no clue what is the best job for their qualifications. They need educated.

 

[PilotGeek]

"The first ALPA carriers were more of a cartel than competing companies. In the age of deregulation we need to make competion work for us. A national seniority list would be a step in that direction."

Never gunna happen!
The have's never want to concede any edge they might have to the have-not's. Always was and always will be!
I can't figure out just who is the have's in this day in age?

I agree its "Never gunna happen" and that's a shame. The tactics that were so effective in 1970 are not working in this free-market economy.

 

[Purpledog]

YOU are ALPA....When ALPA screws up, you screw up (just using you as an example).....I find it amazing when pilots want to point their fingers at ALPA when THEY are ALPA.

With all due respect, BS! Prater and his cronies have a clear edict from their membership with regard to the age 60 rule. What have they done? Folded without a fight. I bet there would be some fighting if the FAA said that they would arbitrarily hold all 55+ pilots to much higher medical standards and keep the retirement age at 60.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

If anything, I'll send a donation to APA-PAC as a friend. At least they represent the interests of the majority of their pilots.

And that would be nice...except that APA will not represent your interests. They will represent the interests of their membership...only.

Tejas

 

[instructordude]

You've gotta pay your dues some where guys. Whether it is Gojet, Comair, ASA et... Don't blame us at the regional level for your perceived low pay. Low pay that you complain about as 55K a year as an FO. That is hardly low. The average wage in america is like 32K.

Remember too, it's not just the pay but the job. Flying a jet is pretty damn awesome in my eyes and to get paid for it too is pretty awesome! Don't forget the satisfaction of this. It's what drives us to be here!

 

[C-141/C-5]

You've gotta pay your dues some where guys. Whether it is Gojet, Comair, ASA et... Don't blame us at the regional level for your perceived low pay. Low pay that you complain about as 55K a year as an FO. That is hardly low. The average wage in america is like 32K.

Remember too, it's not just the pay but the job. Flying a jet is pretty dang awesome in my eyes and to get paid for it too is pretty awesome! Don't forget the satisfaction of this. It's what drives us to be here!

This is obvious Flaim. You claim your a Gojet FO and you make these statements only reflect that this is FLAME!

 

[BigMeat]

C-141,

Our jobs at the majors are to enforce scope to protect our flying and the future flying of those who are at the regionals. The regionals guys jobs are to bring up the pay and work rules at their end. Its not their choice when management brings on a 90 seat jet and tells them to fly it. It is our choice not to let that flying go.