Should I forget about the majors?

[Fred_IP]

I was recently "released" from a regional airline because of their "up or out policy." Without giving too much detail, I was offered a great opportunity to take the Captain's seat in an aircraft I had never flown before after less than a year's flying as a civilian. It seemed to good to be true. Unfortunately, I did not make it through IOE. My biggest issue was adjusting to a new aircraft while still getting acclimated to commercial aviation as a captain. I feel I'm a good pilot, but it was too much, too soon.

Nearly all of my previous flight time is heavy military time, but I'm afraid that I will not be able to recover from this. Going back to military aviation won't be possible until this summer and I don't think I competitive to get on with another regional. I don't know where to go from here.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

Fred

 

[crxpilot]

Nobodys perfect Fred. Just pick yourself up and get back into the game. Youll get hired. Good luck.

 

[satpak77]

I don't think it should affect you, especially since according to your profle you have 3100 hrs, all of it T-1 (Beechjet) and C-5, which obviously = all turbine and lots of heavy

One recommendation is go to a major regional such as SkyWest, CoEx, Am. Eagle, Mesa, etc, as FO, and learn the system, the Part 121 "life", then continue to apply to majors.

In a perfect world, pick the most financially sound, highest paying, best seat progression regional, also one with an "overall" good reputation. An example would be, if Eagle calls you and Gulfstream International calls you on the same day, go to Eagle.

Also, you might look at AirNet or Cherry Air or other jet cargo operators.

I met two retired SWA Capts on the ramp at Cayman last month, they were flying a Lear for some rich dude, we were all in line for fuel (Cayman has like 1 line-dude working at all times) we got to chatting, they said this about the SWA pilot force

(exact quotes)

Military - "we have quite a few, they do a good job"
Corporate - "we have some, they do a good job"
Commuter - "we have quite a few, NOBODY outflies those guys, period. They eat, sleep, breath, the IFR system and Part 121 every day."

They also indicated that SWA was "leaning towards" more commuter guys for future hiring

my .02 cents, I might get hosed on the Eagle comment but Eagle has solid program versus the Gulfstream program. I am not picking on the pilots, I am sure they are good guys, but as far as "training program", I have friends at Eagle and I hear nothing but good things about their training. I have another buddy at SWA who left Part 135 Mu-2 freight directly into SWA, so even the Part 135 jobs are something to look at.

 

[Herk2Wrench]

Fred, I think you need to look real hard at the Military option. Go back on active duty, take the bonus, and ride it out to at least a retirement. If you balk at that option now, you may have a tough time picking it up later. There are time limits for entering the military again. You can always try this airline thing again in 10 years or so anyway. By then, you would have put some time between you and your problems, and you would at least have a fall back position. I would venture to guess there is no way you would recover to your military salary potential in the next ten years in any event, and by the time you throw in your retirement...

I would like to be able to tell you your chances are good, but a realistic assesment in this environment would not lead me to that conclusion. Why take the chance. Best of luck to you, and remember, that which does not kill you makes you stronger. I suspect in ten years you may look back and say that commuter did you a favor...If they are still around, you could send them a thank you card.

 

[saltyswede]

Go to a cargo airline

Kallita, Omni, Tampa, Ryan, They are all hiring now. lots of former mil guys. Southern might hire soon.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Fred, I've taught a lot of military pilots making the transition to the civilian world. The pilots with the toughest time adjusting to single pilot IFR or regional operations come from the big transport jets. Per hour you get less TO and LDGs and instrument approaches. Realistically asses what didn't work out with your upgrade. If it's something you can control such as being weak on IFR skills (which can happen when flying big equipment) or knowledge of the system you can fix it. I'm reading between the lines that you felt out of control due to the up or out policy and you wanted more time to get it together. Did you have this discussion with the Chief Pilot or Training Department Manager when you started to get the idea there was a problem or did you just let it happen? Excercising leadership in your training program (like good Captains do) can solve problems before the blow up into a firing issue. Major airlines aren't hiring now anyway. Why not go back to the military but make it a point to get lots of instrument time on a sim or in General Aviation aircraft and fix whatever didn't work out. From the nature of your post I don't think you had an attitude problem...but just in case....look introspectively and see if there is something there that needs fixing. DON'T give up just because of this. Lots of pilots have similar events in their background. It's either an opportunity for growth or quitting. Which will it be? Respectfully, WC

 

[propjob27]

Fred,

Just curious, who still has that upgrade policy? Lakes was like that, any others?

-T

 

[AlbieF15]

How hard was your IP upgrade in the T-1? How tough was your AC upgrade in the C-5? Did you find you also struggled in those areas, too? You may be facing 20+ years of dreading every next checkride if you have a pattern of either checkride anxiety or a history of sub par performance.

I don't want to sound overly harsh, but are there other interests that might make you happy besides flying?

If this upgrade SNAFU was a fluke, or not indicative of your overall performance, you can probably bounce back. Going back on active duty and/or the ANG might be a great place to start, but as other posters indicated there are other airlines hiring too. If you have a history of busted checks, wash backs out of training, etc then maybe you need to do some soul searching.

You will need to look in the mirror and ask yourself if the last 5/10 years been enjoyable or has it been one long series of stresses. Life is too short to stuggle with a career that doesn't fit you, but if flying really is your gig then I wish you the very best of luck. You will need some "bros" pulling for you to explain to chief pilots, etc that you really are a solid pilot and this was just a bump in the road, so keep your network contacts working for you.

 

[Eagleflip]

Give me a break...

80for80--niiiice attitude. Not.

You having problems at home? Why the personal attack? Here's a better question: Do you think you can actually contribute to the forum by posting a cogent, non-abusive thought? You get a lot more bang for the buck if you discuss without emotion or attacks...

 

[yaks]

Pay no attention to 80for80. His development was arrested in kindergarten.

 

[Caveman]

Something smells fishy here. How do you survive the military flight training regimen, qualify in the C-5, qualify in the Beechjet, earn a 737 type, flight instruct in the military, fly for a year in the civilian 121 world, pass your upgrade ride and then get washed out in IOE?!? There has to be more to this. What's the rest of the story?

I agree with one of the previous posters though. If you can, get back in the military. Do what you know best to recover from this setback. You've already been successful in that environment. Use it to rejuvenate your confidence and pad your resume.

 

[FN FAL]

I met two retired SWA Capts on the ramp at Cayman last month, they were flying a Lear for some rich dude, we were all in line for fuel (Cayman has like 1 line-dude working at all times) we got to chatting, they said this about the SWA pilot force

I know a few retired major airline pilots and they couldn't tell you squat on how to get a job at their old airline now, if their life depended on it. In fact, one retiree I know pretty good, flew for NWA as an airbus and 747 captain and he can't even get his own kids on. He even went as far as to tell me that NWA "OWNED" Mesaba, lock stock and barrel. Since the guy was a friend of the family and a friend of mine, I didn't go into the "no, I think you're thinking of Pinnacle" thing.

All of the guys I know that went to SWA, were either corporate or flew for other nationals, that they got hired on without flying for regionals. All the guys I know that went on to Midwest Airlines, were either 135 or corporate and not regional pilots.

I could see if someone from the training department or HR told you this, but not a couple of old coots too stupid to have saved up enough money to retire on, while working as high paid national airline pilots. Did they recomend any good financial planners as well?

 

[satpak77]

FN FAL

hey man thats cool, I was just passing on what I heard

you want to talk about financial planner recs and your NWA buddy and all that other riga-mo-roll thats cool

just passing on what they told me

 

[AZaviator]

Just curious, who still has that upgrade policy? Lakes was like that, any others?

I think Mesa/Air Midwest has a similar policy. Going from 1900 FO to CRJ Captain, or something like that. But you can't go from 1900 FO to CRJ FO or Dash 8 FO.

 

[Draginass]

It seemed to good to be true.

If it was "too good to be true" . . . . it wasn't Eagle.

Take it easy on 80for80 . . . . he's obviously bittery stuck at Eagle and would rather everyone else be miserable with him.

 

[AA717driver]

FN--Just flying for a "major" seems to inspire omnipotence in many pilots. So many of the people I flew with as a newhire seemed to be experts on all subjects, rather than simply a expert in how to get their particular airplane safely from point A to point B.

I know I don't know jack sh** about much other than getting my airplane from point A to point B. TC

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey 80for80, with your 10,000 hours still flying for Eagle, I see why you developed a big stick in your ass.

You seem to get off on the fact that many flowbacks are washing out in your mighty babyjet. Quite frankly, I don't think it's the problem of flowbacks nearly as much as it's the problem of your training department.

Any training department with a tremendous washout rate is an indication of a problem of that department.

Also, any miserable fuk enjoying the misery and failure of others and wishing ill on others is just that - a miserable fuk.

Go piss up the rope...

 

[Freight Dog]

Gee, let me guess, you must of been an AA flowbAAck! You guys are a bunch of losers. You AArogangt bastards think that we are not good enough to fly jets, well you have PROVEN that you are not good enough to even fly our "little" "barbie" jets! What a joke, go back to the military and fly the Fred, like that's going to help!

Just wait till AMR takes away your pension, then we will see how miserable you are!!!

It really is no wonder you are still at Eagle and are probably gonna enjoy your mighty Eagle retirement with this kind of attitude...

Enjoy it!

 

[BigFlyr]

How do you survive the military flight training regimen, qualify in the C-5, qualify in the Beechjet, earn a 737 type, flight instruct in the military, fly for a year in the civilian 121 world, pass your upgrade ride and then get washed out in IOE?!? There has to be more to this. What's the rest of the story?

It is possible to have all the credentials and not make it at a particular company. We had a B-1 Bomber pilot wash out of IOE after obtaining his 737 (NG) Type... He was just too slow to adapt and had to be prompted for everything, even though he could fly the airplane. Go figure!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Gee, let me guess, you must of been an AA flowbAAck! You guys are a bunch of losers. You AArogangt bastards think that we are not good enough to fly jets, well you have PROVEN that you are not good enough to even fly our "little" "barbie" jets! What a joke, go back to the military and fly the Fred, like that's going to help!

You clicked on the wrong forum, bud. This is MAJORS.

You'll find it much easier to be king of the hill over at the REGIONAL forum. None of us here care about the venom you choose to spit out.