Short Field+Soft Field=How?

[PhatAJ2008]

Heard the DE has students so a short and soft field landing at the same time. How would this be performed? Use breaks? Flaps?

Thanks

 

[gkrangers]

They kinda contradict each other.

 

[tathepilot]

no so..

softfield technique minus the brakes, its that simple

duh :smash:

 

[xjcaptain]

Anybody ever consider that many times a very short strip might also be soft? This is where PTS meets reality and learning at the rote level might leave you a bit short. Short answer, soft field technique, but keep it rolling around the corner. Lift off into ground effect at minimum airspeed to eliminate the rolling drag, and accelerate to Vx to clear obstacles at the end of the short runway that is also soft. Technique also works well on a firm grass strip that is in need of mowing. Amazing how much drag long grass can add!

 

[gkrangers]

Anybody ever consider that many times a very short strip might also be soft? This is where PTS meets reality and learning at the rote level might leave you a bit short. Short answer, soft field technique, but keep it rolling around the corner. Lift off into ground effect at minimum airspeed to eliminate the rolling drag, and accelerate to Vx to clear obstacles at the end of the short runway that is also soft. Technique also works well on a firm grass strip that is in need of mowing. Amazing how much drag long grass can add!

Landing...not takeoff...

 

[avbug]

Short and soft field techniques most certainly do not contradict each other. Very often a field which is soft is short, surrounded by obstacles, and requires the advantages of both techniques...which are the same.

This applies regardless of w(h)eather you do it taking off or landing.

Short fields are frequently soft, soft often short. Not uncommonly, high obstacles are in close proximity. A better way to think about these techniques is to consider them maximum performance techniques.

How you do it really depends on the aircraft, but getting the airplane into the air as soon as possible, or getting the wheels away from obstacles and out of the muck, is the goal. A soft or slick field may not permit stopping, so holding the brakes for takeoff may be out. To say nothing of potential propeller damage. Runups are often not possible in such locations; you do those in the air before you land, not before you take off.

 

[gkrangers]

Well from your standard, run of the mill short field landing perspective, you could dig your way into the ground by using max braking on a soft field.

It would seem to me that just sticking to the normal soft field technique would be fine for a short soft-field, as the extra friction of the ground should do the trick in slowing the airplane...

 

[great cornholio]

Well from your standard, run of the mill short field landing perspective, you could dig your way into the ground by using max braking on a soft field.

It would seem to me that just sticking to the normal soft field technique would be fine for a short soft-field, as the extra friction of the ground should do the trick in slowing the airplane...

You can hit the brakes pretty hard and not dig in on a dry grass field from what I've seen in the GA stuff I flew. I used to take my students to Pierson FL alot back in the day. It wasnt really that short, but I experimented around with the brakes some. On a dry day you could hit the brakes really hard and would just slide across the grass instead of digging in. I never tried it on wet grass cause I never landed on wet grass, just because it seemed to me that if it was a muddy day it wasnt worth it.

Here would be my answer to the original question. 1. try to put it on the ground as soft as possible while aiming for a spot close to the threshold. 2. Keep the yoke back to keep as much pressure off of the nose wheel as possible while hitting enough brakes to get the stopping perf you desire/need. 3. When slow enough do a 180 or whatever turn needed to get to where you want to park the plane while trying to avoid comming to a complete stop until you get where you want to leave the plane.

This is where rote memorizaton of techniques is a bad thing cause people think soft let it roll and short max brakes. When really all you have to do is use a little of both and just fly the plane in a way that will keep you from crashing....that will pretty much work in any situation.

 

[nosehair]

Heard the DE has students so a short and soft field landing at the same time. How would this be performed? Use breaks? Flaps?

Thanks

It's unfortunate that a combo short/soft isn't a choice on the PTS. That doesn't stop us as instructors from teaching some combination techniques, but there are many different ways of extrapolating the two, and the extrapolation would be dependent on the unique conditions of the shortness and softness of the landing strip being considered.

No DE should ever ask a student to make these kind of judgements because there can be so much variation on the subject.

I think it would be great to have some set of standards and included in the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook with the kinds of techniques that are offered here, and in the PTS, but without standards, my opinion is as good as yours. Each DE will have his/her own level of experience and opinion.

 

[avbug]

You can hit the brakes pretty hard and not dig in on a dry grass field from what I've seen in the GA stuff I flew.

Grass doesn't make the field soft. Tall grass certainly can, because it grabs at wheels, but merely the presence of grass doesn't make it a soft field, and normal takeoff and landings on a turf runway are common practice.

Mud, slush, sand, and other such surfaces are soft. These not only make taxiing difficult, but bind tires and slow down acceleration. On landing, they can grab tires and cause both directional problems and control problems such as pitching a conventional gear airplane onto it's nose.

Rough field is somewat in the same vein as soft field, which may include big rocks or logs, chunks of ice, etc. A very neven or unprepared surface can be a rough field. Soft field techniques are generally applicable on rough fields or unpepared surfaces, too, and the need to minimize exposure to them also makes them by necessity short fields.

Short fields are often short because they're limited by takeoff area, which is usually limited by obstacles, which puts obstacles directly adjacent to the takeoff area in many cases. It may be limited to a drop off or river, but often as not by trees, power poles, cliffs, fences, terrain, or other hazards.

In most light airplanes, the technique is the same. Get the airplane off the surface and into ground effect in as short a distance as possible, and accelerate in ground effect. This often requires a very gradual application of power and application of flaps well into the takeoff roll, both potentially advanced techniques, as is the takeoff and landing from a short, soft field. A pilot should have some solid flying under his or her belt before coming back to be taught these sorts of practices; it's nothing a student pilot should be taught and then kicked loose to try.

When the examiner asks you to perform one technique or the other, put on the brakes right there and find out exactly what is going on, review the proceedures, pull out the performance charts and show the examiner what you have to work with. If the example field that the examiner wants you to demonstrate is too much, explain that you wouldn't be taking off or landing there in the first place. The one exception is the emergency landing site...whch you don't always get to choose.

If yo have performance data for a dry, standing takeoff with brakes held and released at full power, then use that. If you have performance data for a maximum performance takeoff on soft surfaces, then use that. If you're given a scenario where it's both, remember that the soft field technique you're given is the only way to taxi and takeoff...you have no other choices...use the performance data (understanding that a soft field will make it substantially longer, and you can't really predict how much longer because of the wide variance in surface conditions with which you might be presented) given you. Use the longest distance listed. If it's longer than what the examiner has given you to work with, just tell him you can't do it and you're refusing as PIC to take off. Nobody can fault you for that.

 

[svcta]

This should not arise regardless of real world facts because, as stated above, the PTS clearly separates these two things. They are always handled separately regarding Private training. I can see how this would befuddle a student on a checkride. That's not the time to be discussing theory(or enforcing it, rather). We're nothing without the clearly stated tasks and objectives in the PTS from a TRAINING perspective.

I could applaud the DE for combining the two as long as he briefed it and explained which parts he wanted to combine. Again(without having read it in nearly a decade) they are 2 different tasks.

 

[avbug]

They are always handled separately regarding Private training.

No, they're not. That would depend on the airplane. In some aircraft, the procedure is the same.

 

[pilotyip]

There is no such thing as a short/soft field takeoff. Short Field and Soft Field are PTS terms. They do not deal with the reality of flying an airplane. I learned to fly in the military, we learned to fly in a very tight procedural envelope, and this allowed us learn quickly with low flight time and allow to gain experience without killing ourselves. I use the same procedures when teaching civilians. I have instructed in my C-150, the C-150 is under powered. I did not want my students killing themselves by trying something they were not certified to do. I had a 2200' grass strip I used, it had a fence at the end and a 30' tree off to the side. Using short field technique you would clear the tree, on the same runway using soft field technique you could barely clear the fence. I told them to stay the heck away from short unpaved strips. New pilots should not be taught to put themselves in situations where they may be in over their respective heads. As a pilot gains experience they will be more capable of recognizing how an airplane will perform. At the same time and near where I instructing 3 people were killed when a new pilot attempted short/soft procedure in a fully loaded Cherokee, and later another pilot ran off the end of the same runway after attempting a soft/short procedure. The field collected water after rainstorms and was almost swampy; it was a true soft field. Most grass strips are not true soft fields, and short field procedure can be used.

 

[svcta]

Hey, bug. Look here at how the two are separated. I gave caveat that we know real world situations can be different, but in regards to training we've only got the PTS to train to....otherwise our students could be on the hook for anything an airplane could do. This is taken straight from the Private PTS. 2 distinct tasks:

C. TASK: SOFT-FIELD TAKEOFF AND CLIMB (ASEL)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a soft-field takeoff and
climb.
2. Positions the flight controls for existing wind conditions and to
maximize lift as quickly as possible.
3. Clears the area; taxies onto the takeoff surface at a speed consistent
with safety without stopping while advancing the throttle smoothly to
takeoff power.
4. Establishes and maintains a pitch attitude that will transfer the weight
of the airplane from the wheels to the wings as rapidly as possible.
5. Lifts off at the lowest possible airspeed and remains in ground effect
while accelerating to VX or VY, as appropriate.
6. Establishes a pitch attitude for VX or VY, as appropriate, and
maintains selected airspeed +10/-5 knots, during the climb.
7. Retracts the landing gear, if appropriate, and flaps after clear of any
obstacles or as recommended by the manufacturer.
8. Maintains takeoff power and VX or VY +10/-5 knots to a safe
maneuvering altitude.
9. Maintains directional control and proper wind-drift correction
throughout the takeoff and climb.
10. Completes the appropriate checklist.

D. TASK: SOFT-FIELD APPROACH AND LANDING (ASEL)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a soft-field approach
and landing.
2. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface and obstructions, and
selects the most suitable touchdown area.
3. Establishes the recommended approach and landing configuration,
and airspeed; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
4. Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended airspeed, or in its
absence not more than 1.3 VSO, +10/-5 knots, with wind gust factor
applied.
5. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the
roundout and touchdown.
6. Touches down softly with no drift, and with the airplane's longitudinal
axis aligned with the runway/landing path.
7. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the
approach and landing sequence.
8. Maintains proper position of the flight controls and sufficient speed to
taxi on the soft surface.
9. Completes the appropriate checklist.

E. TASK: SHORT-FIELD TAKEOFF (CONFINED AREA—ASES) AND
MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE CLIMB (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (confined
area ASES) takeoff and maximum performance climb.
2. Positions the flight controls for the existing wind conditions; sets the
flaps as recommended.
3. Clears the area; taxies into takeoff position utilizing maximum
available takeoff area and aligns the airplane on the runway
center/takeoff path.
4. Selects an appropriate take off path for the existing conditions
(ASES).
5. Applies brakes (if appropriate), while advancing the throttle
smoothly to takeoff power.
6. Establishes and maintains the most efficient planing/lift-off attitude
and corrects for porpoising and skipping (ASES).
7. Lifts off at the recommended airspeed, and accelerates to the
recommended obstacle clearance airspeed or VX.
8. Establishes a pitch attitude that will maintain the recommended
obstacle clearance airspeed, or VX,+10/-5 knots, until the obstacle is
cleared, or until the airplane is 50 feet (20 meters) above the surface.
9. After clearing the obstacle, establishes the pitch attitude for VY,
accelerates to VY, and maintains VY, +10/-5 knots, during the
climb.
10. Retracts the landing gear, if appropriate, and flaps after clear of any
obstacles or as recommended by manufacturer.
11. Maintains takeoff power and VY +10/-5 to a safe maneuvering
altitude.
12. Maintains directional control and proper wind-drift correction
throughout the takeoff and climb.
13. Completes the appropriate checklist.


F. TASK: SHORT-FIELD APPROACH (CONFINED AREA—ASES) AND
LANDING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (confined
area ASES) approach and landing.
2. Adequately surveys the intended landing area (ASES).
3. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface, obstructions, and
selects the most suitable touchdown point.
4. Establishes the recommended approach and landing configuration
and airspeed; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
5. Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended approach
airspeed, or in its absence not more than 1.3 VSO, +10/-5 knots,
with wind gust factor applied.
6. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the
roundout and touchdown.
7. Selects the proper landing path, contacts the water at the minimum
safe airspeed with the proper pitch attitude for the surface
conditions (ASES).
8. Touches down smoothly at minimum control airspeed (ASEL).
9. Touches down at or within 200 feet (60 meters) beyond a specified
point, with no side drift, minimum float and with the airplane's
longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway center/landing
path.
10. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout
the approach and landing sequence.
11. Applies brakes, (ASEL) or elevator control (ASEs), as necessary, to
stop in the shortest distance consistent with safety.
12. Completes the appropriate checklist.

 

[avbug]

I get it. I've been an insructor for more than a few years now, and believe it or not...I've seen the PTS.

My point was that some for many aircraft, there's no difference...it's the same technique. The same, verbatim technique. Not one, not the other...there's only one way to do it.

 

[svcta]

sigh.

if you're giving dual in such an airplane, buggie, just make sure to mention that it's not always the case. Regarding training, they are 2 distinct tasks.

Once again, you've chosen to bring up an aspect that noone was talking about. We get it: All hail AVBUG, most wise and knowledgeable poster on the internet.

 

[avbug]

A thoughtful and intelligent response, as usual.

In an aircraft that has the same technique for short and soft field, there's no need for panic. An examiner who asks for one a short technique will see it demonstrated. An examienr who asks for a soft technique will see it demonstrated. Both will see the same thing.

Not exactly rocket science, you know.

 

[svcta]

head, meet wall. Repeat.

Devil's in the details, isn't it?

You know you'd be making the converse argument if the situation were reversed. Can I get a witness!?

 

[chuckthepilot]

I was a bit surprised by this. I was told through all my training that the FAA viewed all PTS material as "worse case scenario." IE Short and soft. Granted, nobody I knew had to land a cub on a roof, but if they failed you on these grounds it was generally accepted that you had really screwed up on something related to this, but not on the actual PTS itself.

 

[svcta]

say huh?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Well from your standard, run of the mill short field landing perspective, you could dig your way into the ground by using max braking on a soft field.

That's sort of the point that I think a couple of folks were making. The PTS task is a step-by-step, by-rote, snapshot of one discrete skill set that, in the real world, is part of a bigger picture. In that bigger picture, what you are supposedly learning from this, and the other maneuvers, is a set of skills that give you the ability to control the aircraft - ultimately you have to apply and correlate (to use the buzzwords) so that you use the skills you have to meet the situation you are in.

So, the "book" soft field landing gives (or should give) understanding the reverse side of the power curve, how to steepen a descent while keeping energy under control, practice in aiming for a specific touchdown spot, and the effect of flaps on breaking ability. "Soft" field practice, even on a paved runway works the skill to use your pitch and power tools with enough finesse to decrease the descent rate before touchdown and keep the nose from bogging in.

It's the knowledge and skills that we are supposed to get out of this, not some silly idea that if the field is short, we slam on the brakes regardless of the short runway's condition.

Looking at them that way, asking a student to combine them makes sense - of course you're not going to slam on the brakes if the field is soft as well as short. We also avoid the common refrain that short field landing practice is just silly on a paved runway. So far the best "soft field" landing I've done was on a paved runway when we were worried about the condition of a nosewheel and wanted to keep it off the ground as long as possible as we slowed after landing.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Granted, nobody I knew had to land a cub on a roof,

There was a story a few years back about a pilot who took off from an airport and had an engine problem as he flew over a downtown area and did an excellent short field landing on the roof of, as I recall, a supermarket.

Ditto on svcta's "huh?"

 

[Swass]

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001208X06938&ntsbno=MIA97FA010&akey=1

 

[avbug]

Somewhat off the thread topic, but from the NTSB narrative posted by Swass:

The pilot stated that he changed the engine oil and cleaned the oil screen 1 week before the accident; however, he did not operate the engine with the cowling removed after the oil change to check for oil leaks. He is not an Airframe or Powerplant mechanic but is authorized by 14 CFR Part 43 to perform preventative maintenance to his airplane which includes lubrication and cleaning and replacing oil strainers or filter elements.

It's as good a time as any to remind folks that while Appendix A of Part 43 does allow owner preventative maintenance, the non-mechanic performing that maintenance is just as responsible for full compliance with all practices and proceedures...manufacturer, FAA, and industry. That report is a good example of the cost of failing to take that responsibility seriously.

 

[dogismycopilot]

C. TASK: SOFT-FIELD TAKEOFF AND CLIMB (ASEL)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a soft-field takeoff and
climb.
2. Positions the flight controls for existing wind conditions and to
maximize lift as quickly as possible.
3. Clears the area; taxies onto the takeoff surface at a speed consistent
with safety without stopping while advancing the throttle smoothly to
takeoff power.
4. Establishes and maintains a pitch attitude that will transfer the weight
of the airplane from the wheels to the wings as rapidly as possible.
5. Lifts off at the lowest possible airspeed and remains in ground effect
while accelerating to VX or VY, as appropriate.
6. Establishes a pitch attitude for VX or VY, as appropriate, and
maintains selected airspeed +10/-5 knots, during the climb.
7. Retracts the landing gear, if appropriate, and flaps after clear of any
obstacles or as recommended by the manufacturer.
8. Maintains takeoff power and VX or VY +10/-5 knots to a safe
maneuvering altitude.
9. Maintains directional control and proper wind-drift correction
throughout the takeoff and climb.
10. Completes the appropriate checklist.

Looks like I would choose a climbout at VX if a shorter Soft Field T/O was desired, all other things remaining equal. But maybe I'm not reading enough into it.

 

[pilotyip]

If you used a soft field procedure, i.e. nose of ground during roll, you would fail the PTS for a short field T/O.

 

[Ray Finkle]

I agree, I came from Iowa, believe me...soft fields are typically short. we used to do them in flight school for real life practice and its an interesting challenge. landing, use soft technique, just no brakes... like landing on an ice covered runway...no brakes. you dont have much choice on this, you cant touch down like you would on a normal shorty, you could bury/rip off the the gear. havent done it in years, but i think we approached like a short to get the higher angle of descent to clear any obstacle, but came in with power at the last moment to deccelerate vertically and then go for the soft touchdown. make the call fromthe air. if in doubt...dont.