Short Field+Soft Field=How?

[svcta]

This should not arise regardless of real world facts because, as stated above, the PTS clearly separates these two things. They are always handled separately regarding Private training. I can see how this would befuddle a student on a checkride. That's not the time to be discussing theory(or enforcing it, rather). We're nothing without the clearly stated tasks and objectives in the PTS from a TRAINING perspective.

I could applaud the DE for combining the two as long as he briefed it and explained which parts he wanted to combine. Again(without having read it in nearly a decade) they are 2 different tasks.

 

[avbug]

They are always handled separately regarding Private training.

No, they're not. That would depend on the airplane. In some aircraft, the procedure is the same.

 

[pilotyip]

There is no such thing as a short/soft field takeoff. Short Field and Soft Field are PTS terms. They do not deal with the reality of flying an airplane. I learned to fly in the military, we learned to fly in a very tight procedural envelope, and this allowed us learn quickly with low flight time and allow to gain experience without killing ourselves. I use the same procedures when teaching civilians. I have instructed in my C-150, the C-150 is under powered. I did not want my students killing themselves by trying something they were not certified to do. I had a 2200' grass strip I used, it had a fence at the end and a 30' tree off to the side. Using short field technique you would clear the tree, on the same runway using soft field technique you could barely clear the fence. I told them to stay the heck away from short unpaved strips. New pilots should not be taught to put themselves in situations where they may be in over their respective heads. As a pilot gains experience they will be more capable of recognizing how an airplane will perform. At the same time and near where I instructing 3 people were killed when a new pilot attempted short/soft procedure in a fully loaded Cherokee, and later another pilot ran off the end of the same runway after attempting a soft/short procedure. The field collected water after rainstorms and was almost swampy; it was a true soft field. Most grass strips are not true soft fields, and short field procedure can be used.

 

[svcta]

Hey, bug. Look here at how the two are separated. I gave caveat that we know real world situations can be different, but in regards to training we've only got the PTS to train to....otherwise our students could be on the hook for anything an airplane could do. This is taken straight from the Private PTS. 2 distinct tasks:

C. TASK: SOFT-FIELD TAKEOFF AND CLIMB (ASEL)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a soft-field takeoff and
climb.
2. Positions the flight controls for existing wind conditions and to
maximize lift as quickly as possible.
3. Clears the area; taxies onto the takeoff surface at a speed consistent
with safety without stopping while advancing the throttle smoothly to
takeoff power.
4. Establishes and maintains a pitch attitude that will transfer the weight
of the airplane from the wheels to the wings as rapidly as possible.
5. Lifts off at the lowest possible airspeed and remains in ground effect
while accelerating to VX or VY, as appropriate.
6. Establishes a pitch attitude for VX or VY, as appropriate, and
maintains selected airspeed +10/-5 knots, during the climb.
7. Retracts the landing gear, if appropriate, and flaps after clear of any
obstacles or as recommended by the manufacturer.
8. Maintains takeoff power and VX or VY +10/-5 knots to a safe
maneuvering altitude.
9. Maintains directional control and proper wind-drift correction
throughout the takeoff and climb.
10. Completes the appropriate checklist.

D. TASK: SOFT-FIELD APPROACH AND LANDING (ASEL)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a soft-field approach
and landing.
2. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface and obstructions, and
selects the most suitable touchdown area.
3. Establishes the recommended approach and landing configuration,
and airspeed; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
4. Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended airspeed, or in its
absence not more than 1.3 VSO, +10/-5 knots, with wind gust factor
applied.
5. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the
roundout and touchdown.
6. Touches down softly with no drift, and with the airplane's longitudinal
axis aligned with the runway/landing path.
7. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the
approach and landing sequence.
8. Maintains proper position of the flight controls and sufficient speed to
taxi on the soft surface.
9. Completes the appropriate checklist.

E. TASK: SHORT-FIELD TAKEOFF (CONFINED AREA—ASES) AND
MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE CLIMB (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (confined
area ASES) takeoff and maximum performance climb.
2. Positions the flight controls for the existing wind conditions; sets the
flaps as recommended.
3. Clears the area; taxies into takeoff position utilizing maximum
available takeoff area and aligns the airplane on the runway
center/takeoff path.
4. Selects an appropriate take off path for the existing conditions
(ASES).
5. Applies brakes (if appropriate), while advancing the throttle
smoothly to takeoff power.
6. Establishes and maintains the most efficient planing/lift-off attitude
and corrects for porpoising and skipping (ASES).
7. Lifts off at the recommended airspeed, and accelerates to the
recommended obstacle clearance airspeed or VX.
8. Establishes a pitch attitude that will maintain the recommended
obstacle clearance airspeed, or VX,+10/-5 knots, until the obstacle is
cleared, or until the airplane is 50 feet (20 meters) above the surface.
9. After clearing the obstacle, establishes the pitch attitude for VY,
accelerates to VY, and maintains VY, +10/-5 knots, during the
climb.
10. Retracts the landing gear, if appropriate, and flaps after clear of any
obstacles or as recommended by manufacturer.
11. Maintains takeoff power and VY +10/-5 to a safe maneuvering
altitude.
12. Maintains directional control and proper wind-drift correction
throughout the takeoff and climb.
13. Completes the appropriate checklist.


F. TASK: SHORT-FIELD APPROACH (CONFINED AREA—ASES) AND
LANDING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (confined
area ASES) approach and landing.
2. Adequately surveys the intended landing area (ASES).
3. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface, obstructions, and
selects the most suitable touchdown point.
4. Establishes the recommended approach and landing configuration
and airspeed; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
5. Maintains a stabilized approach and recommended approach
airspeed, or in its absence not more than 1.3 VSO, +10/-5 knots,
with wind gust factor applied.
6. Makes smooth, timely, and correct control application during the
roundout and touchdown.
7. Selects the proper landing path, contacts the water at the minimum
safe airspeed with the proper pitch attitude for the surface
conditions (ASES).
8. Touches down smoothly at minimum control airspeed (ASEL).
9. Touches down at or within 200 feet (60 meters) beyond a specified
point, with no side drift, minimum float and with the airplane's
longitudinal axis aligned with and over the runway center/landing
path.
10. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout
the approach and landing sequence.
11. Applies brakes, (ASEL) or elevator control (ASEs), as necessary, to
stop in the shortest distance consistent with safety.
12. Completes the appropriate checklist.

 

[avbug]

I get it. I've been an insructor for more than a few years now, and believe it or not...I've seen the PTS.

My point was that some for many aircraft, there's no difference...it's the same technique. The same, verbatim technique. Not one, not the other...there's only one way to do it.

 

[svcta]

sigh.

if you're giving dual in such an airplane, buggie, just make sure to mention that it's not always the case. Regarding training, they are 2 distinct tasks.

Once again, you've chosen to bring up an aspect that noone was talking about. We get it: All hail AVBUG, most wise and knowledgeable poster on the internet.

 

[avbug]

A thoughtful and intelligent response, as usual.

In an aircraft that has the same technique for short and soft field, there's no need for panic. An examiner who asks for one a short technique will see it demonstrated. An examienr who asks for a soft technique will see it demonstrated. Both will see the same thing.

Not exactly rocket science, you know.

 

[svcta]

head, meet wall. Repeat.

Devil's in the details, isn't it?

You know you'd be making the converse argument if the situation were reversed. Can I get a witness!?

 

[chuckthepilot]

I was a bit surprised by this. I was told through all my training that the FAA viewed all PTS material as "worse case scenario." IE Short and soft. Granted, nobody I knew had to land a cub on a roof, but if they failed you on these grounds it was generally accepted that you had really screwed up on something related to this, but not on the actual PTS itself.

 

[svcta]

say huh?