Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Shark bait

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
It's nice to be able to study terrain maps and prepare to go into a place. I've never had that luxury. Often we didn't know where we were going when we took off; we would be given a rought direction and some lat long coordinates enroute. We didn't know where we'd be recovering to, either. Studying terrain wouldn't help. The arena was far too big, and the targets far too general to prepare, and the visibility far too low to worry about it.

I'm not a fatalist, nor do I have a bad attitude. Some of my more recent work has been in an industry that has lost up to 10% of it's people on an annual basis, and could be considered by some to be high risk. Generally when an accident occurs, it's not survivable. Therefore, we train and prepare and fly such that we do all we can to avoid an accident.

However, when you're in an airplane that's not very maneuverable, that's 50 years old and spares and new parts haven't been built for 49 of those years, and you're in a tight canyon in moderate to severe turbulence in near zero visibility, with a climb capability on all engines of 100 fpm, with flames 100-200' above your working altitude, maneuvering at 200' or less, with objects flying around in there on fire the size of 2X4's and even the size of trees, in close proximity to a number of other aircraft...there are a number of factors that are outside your control.

You concentrate on what you can deal with, and do NOT worry about what you can't. There is only one way to make such an operation safe; stay on the ground. When it's one's livliehood, one doesn't sit on the ground. One is pilot, firefighter, crewchief, mechanic, navigator, and engineer, using a crew of 2 in an airplane designed to be flown by a crew of 11.

I'm far from fatalistic. However, the above is one of a number of different assignments I've had which do involve risk, much of which cannot be changed or taken away. Some has been over fire, some over water. Some over the desert, most in the mountains. Much of it has been low level. I learned to fly formation UNDER powerlines as part of learning to fly ag, and was employed in that capacity; it was my first job after high school and I started it at age 18.

Fatalistic believing that there is nothing you can do. Realistic is having been in the business and having buried enough friends and competitors to know there are times that there is nothing you can do. Realistic is knowing when those times are, and knowing enough about what you're doing to know that you needn't dwell on those times.

It's nice to always have an out. There are jobs that don't permit an out, where you are quite simply out of luck if something goes wrong. I have enough experience in those jobs to understand that, and to know that there are more important tasks to concentrate on at such times than contemplating the potential disasters that might befall me. Simply put, I do my job, and do it the best I can. Once I have done all I can, I needn't fear.

Yes, I've spent time in the water in gear, training in egress, training in survival. I've spent time in the hills in the summer and winter training in survival, and in the desert. I've spent time doing the same thing in the rainforest, and other places. I carry gear, I plan ahead.

You want fatalistic? The aircraft I flew into the fires, above, was old. Every flammable fluid and ignition source in the aircraft, safe the engine oil tanks, was in the cockpit with me. The single source of all the system hydraulics was in a tank behind me. The fuel came in from the wings, entered the boost pumps, and went back out to the wings. The boost pump boxes sat atop the inverters; a leak and there would be a fire. Every accumulator in the airplane was right behind us in the cockpit. The fuel gages were made of glass, were sight gages, and were in the cockpit. Beneath us was the APU; a 54 year old 2 cylinder ranger engine; it was directly beneath our seats. In the cockpit was a large janitrol heater, fed with avgas, in the floor, out in the open; it tended to catch fire from time to time. The wings on that airplane had a history of leakage. We did much better than the services which had them before; we didn't have nearly the problems because we took better care of the equipment, but it still wasn't unheard of to have the bomb bay fill with avgas.

Every compressed gas, every flammable fluid, every source of ignition, right there with us in the cockpit. Our egress was right in front of the #2 and #3 propellers. Historically,when those airplanes did go in, it was invariably in the conditions previously indicated. Fatalistic is knowing that eveyrbody has died. Fatalistic might even be knowing that since 1969, 135% of the tanker pilots have died. That's everybody and a third of those that started. One individual survived a P-2 wreck for almost a day, three years ago, but died on scene. (He was wearing green nomex, which made him hard to find at the wreck site, and was unable to be located prior to his death). Fatalistic is throwing one's hands in the air and stating with apathy, "oh well, I guess I'm next."

I'm not fatalistic. I'm realistic. I know the risks, and I fly such that I attempt to mitigate them. I carried a full complement of spares on board. I carried tools. I'm a fully certificated mechanic and inspector, and have had to work on the airplane in flight during malfunctions and emergencies. Being prepared means being prepared for anything, and I hardly see that as fatalistic.

However, once one has been put in the situation of making a forced landing or ditching, one knows that either it will be successful, or not. If not, then it's out of your hands. You do what you can, and if you survive, you make the best of it. If you don't, then you needn't worry because you're dead. Only your family need worry.

Should one worry about that when flying over terrain, over water, or at night? I dont' believe so. I take care of that by planning ahead where ever possible, but certainly not be worrying about it at the time. I don't spend a moment in a piston or turboprop or turbojet when not considering what to do if something goes amiss. I consider forced landing sites, alternatives, and the effects of control and systems failures. Any good pilot does. However, to say that because one doesn't worry or fear the possibility of powerplant, systems, or structural failure is fatalistic, or naive, is misplaced. I am not naive, fatalistic, or misplaced.

I'll close what should have gone without saying, by adding that I don't contemplate forced landings and ditchings based on theoritical knowledge, or a simulator, or a dunk tank. I base it on actual experience. I have landed airplanes on several occasions without power due to failures. I have had 10 failures in single engine airplanes, and a host of failures in multis. I have experienced them in piston powered aircraft, turboprop powered aircraft, and have yet to experience anything highly significant in a turbojet (aside from minor system failures and a firelight). Dealing with such situations is not new, nor exciting to me. It is par for the course, and if one is prepared for the eventuality, then one need not panic at the first sign of trouble.

Part of being a professional aviator is planning such that the emergency situation be comes a matter of routine or at the worst, abnormality. I am not fatalistic, but there are far worse things than dying, and far worse things than dying in an airplane.
 
Well I don't know about ditching an aircraft but I have extensive expierence with boating expierence (I've had one sink under me) and I will say that the sea is nothing you want to ditch in no matter where you are even with an EPIRB Cat II(about 2 generations better than the ELT), and a Mayday it took the Coasties over an hour to get to us and we were only 4 miles offshore. Also the raft wasn't that much to shelter, and I would never want to be on it for any time longer.
 
avbug said:
My specific background (and me) is of little consequence...
I don't care which way you're leaning. Have you something to contribute to the question at hand, or is the time best spent attacking the credibility of other posters?...
Save your veracity. Dismiss the opinions if you find them too strong. Others do.

May I offer a suggestion, Avbug?
Just answer the question. Tell us a little about your background. Tell us how you came by this wealth of information you seem to have. We don't need specifics or incriminating info.
You dodged his question. And you have dodged that question many times before. I ask why, and please spare me the "I don't care if you believe me" speech again. You are very opinionated, and you seem to have "been there". OTH, we have seen posters before that just read every aviation story out there and could quote any one of them. I don't know if this is the case, and I really don't care, however, don't be upset when people continue to question your credibility if you won't share your qualifications with us.
And don't waste bandwith chiding posters who challenge your credibility if you won't give them something in return.
Cheers.
 
This thread didn't ask for facts; it asked for opinions. It didn't ask for specific advice, proceedures, or anything else. Just how we feel. I responded that personally, I don't feel it's a big concern. The response, to which my last post was directed, asked where I gained this "composure."

First, I have never once claimed to be an expert in any specific area, nor to have a "wealth" of experience. I have elaborated specifically on numbers of failures, types of training, and so forth. Is a resume required? There are things I will most certainly discuss at length, and things which I will not, and cannot discuss.

Yes, I have ditching experience, yes I have water landing experience. Yes, I have survival experience, asked and answered. I don't see that it matters, but for the insanely curious, yes, yes, yes.

Among previous assignments have been corporate, charter, scheduled work, back country work, air ambulance, banner towing, glider towing, packing parachutes, tossing skydivers, aerial firefighting, government work in several capacities, search and rescue, aerial photography, ag work (crop dusting), aircraft maintenance, flight instruction, some limited ferry work, cargo/freight, animal tracking, weather modification, and other misc duties.

Recently there was an extensive thread where everyone could post their life history and significance in the world. Such a question appeals to the ego; I chose not to post there for some time, and finally left a self-depreciating comment strictly about myself, rather than comment on the nature of the thread. I felt that was more than adequate, and it's about as much as I care to discuss about myself. I am not an expert, I am not the messiah of aviation, and what I have to say does not require or merit defense or support.

You already sent me private messages threatening to censor or delete my postings, have accused me on several occasions of performing "rants," which indicate fits of uncontrolled childish behavior, and have indicated that I may not be allowed to post on the site any more. If something I have to say so deeply offends you, by all means have the webmaster notify me, and I'll be happy to go elsewhere. If posting here means a dissection of avbug for it's own sake, then I'll go elsewhere, anyway.

How is it that others can post opinions here, which are often in the extreme, but haven't been deeply put under the microscope? If I wanted to be under the microscope, I'd opt for the lecture circuit. Except that I'm really no one to be on such a circuit, and no one of consequence. I've been asked to address a few college classes and the like, and quite honestly, I don't care for the attention. I would much rather write what I have to say in relative anonymity, and be done with it. If that means having to defend every word with explaination, details, dates names, faces, and the like, then it is simply not worth it.

If I were someone who posted misc. information from other sources, would it matter? I don't, and when I have used other sources, I've identified the source (eg, Aviation & Space Weekly, etc). But I still don't see that it matters. This isn't even an issue that should be had outside a private posting. Not a soul has ever sent me a private posting asking for my background and experience, but a number have posted me and emailed me to discuss topics. I have to believe that this is because the topics are far more important than am I; this is how it should be. This is how it is.

There are technical questions which I sometimes respond to, along with others. Many times the answers to those questions don't come off the top of my head. I refer to other sites, books, data bases. I research the answer, and indeed, this is a large part of the reason I participate here, and other sites. I use the question to force myself to dig into the book; it's an incentive to study. Again, that's really nobodies affair but my own.

Perhaps you don't like the way I write? Send me to school. I have no education. I could use one. Don't like my language? There's no excessive profanity, no language of excitability, no ranting. But it's the best I can do. I already apologised to you privately for ever becoming involved in any discussions outside the technical; perhaps this topic, "how do you feel?," is far too controversial, and I have overstepped my bounds. Perhaps a private apology is not acceptable; my most sincere apolgoies, then, in public.

There is more to type, but it would be wasteful. I do not have a need to defend being me. I was born who I am, and have spent a lifetime being who I am, for better or worse. There are far more useful topics on the board to discuss than "avbug" and what he does or did for a living. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that anybody really cares. Perhaps that's just a symptom of the turn of the decade furloughs....too much time. Certainly so if folks are worried about my private life.

Now, I will not discuss this any more. Have we something significant to discuss? I believe the general direction of this thread was leaning toward sharks....I don't like them, they scare me to death, I hope to never be close to them, and I prefer the water from the shore. To those who surf and swim with them, more power to you, best of luck, but it makes me uncomfortable to watch...come ashore and I'll buy you a drink on dry land, and we can talk flying all day long. Good enough??
 
I didn't think my post was unreasonable. I apoligize, because obviously you did. However, you still didn't answer the question. I guess it doesn't matter. I'm trying to help you here.
As you said, some will listen, some will not. I guess those that will listen can make up their own minds.

Just to answer your question "How is it that others can post opinions here, which are often in the extreme, but haven't been deeply put under the microscope?", the reason is because the majority of them have chosen to share a profile with us, and justify their remarks from a point of experience. You refuse to share anything except vague "been there, done that" statements and refuse to back up your comments. This invites scrutiny, and posters question you, flame you, and create work for me. That's where I come into this. Don't get upset when someone questions your credibility if you won't give it out, and don't think you're the only one who is questioned.
I'm only trying to make things a little smoother here. Take my advice or leave it, as you would say.

However, I do agree that this has gone way off topic. Enough of this. Back to sharks.
 
For what it is worth avbug I enjoy your post and your answers, enjoy life, it is too short to get bent over the details. Dave Gardner
 
I just read that the TALIBAN pow's in gitmo, cuba would have to brave shark infested waters if they tried to escape. I think the author was being serious. I swim almost everyday near st thomas, usvi. It seems like I've heard that there have only been four fatal attacks in the caribbean ever, or four bites a year in the whole caribbean - something like that. It's hard to tell fact from fiction.

A couple days ago I caught a jumpseat in a DHL CAravan from st Thomas to San Juan - I'll take my three engine piston Trislander anytime. Of course if you ditch, the cargo is probably gonna come through the cockpit.

My night engine failure on climb out from Albuquerque a couple years ago in a Ce 210 is another story - i thought i was dead.
 
shawn posted:
" even with an EPIRB Cat II(about 2 generations better than the ELT), and a Mayday it took the Coasties over an hour to get to us and we were only 4 miles offshore."

That is pretty quick. The mayday call is probably what got them there so soon.

The last time I checked in on epribs the "new" one was a 733 mhz (or real close). If memory serves me correct, the satilites that receive these signals will cross every point on earth every 4 hours. So, if you hit the drink and your Eprib is working your first signal will take at least 4 hours to reach the Coasties. Coasties are alerted, but they won't do anything unless they get a second signal 4 hours later. On the first signal they will try to contact the owner who it is registered to, to make sure it isn't an accidental activation. So, best case senerio is 8 hours before they start to look for you. Better hope your in the Caribbean and not the North Atlantic. My uncle's Eprib went off last year accidentally on Beef Island and I got a call from the Coasties that was 3 hours after the initial activation.

Are Ebrips used on aircraft flying over the ponds? Seems like they should be as they are the best thing Mariners have as a distress sig whenoff shore or out of VHF range.
 
When I was running our Part 135 years ago one of our pilot's lost oil pressure(the oil filter holder/extention blew out) on a C-206. He was VFR at night at 4500 over Indiana,he headed for the nearest airport but didn't have enough altitude to make the runway. Being the sharp pilot that he was he just tried to land on the airport. He skipped across the runway and ended up in a cornfield. The corn stopped him like one of those barriers on an aircraft carrier. No damage to the aircraft and of course he was fine. We just had to change the engine and the propeller and pay the farmer for the corn damage. The reality is that in hard IFR the same things happens it is just that when you break out at 100 feet you only have 4 to 5 seconds to pick a place and land. I have had 5 total engine failures in a single engine and landed the aircraft successfully everytime without putting a nick on the aircraft. My total single engine time comes to 3054 hours, that is one failure every six hundred hours. Something to think about.
 
Not sure if they are used in the airliners but the EPIRB that we used was a Cat II with Intergal GPS. Those have about a 20 min responce time (time from intial transmission to time the USCG gets notfied) because they transmit along with the homing signal the GPS fix of the sat (updated every 20 mins). They just came out about 2 years ago, cost about $2,000.

As far as required I'm not sure if airplanes have to have it but all ships must have a Cat I (automatic release Cat II is manual) to qualify for the SOLAS status(of course there are other requirments like life rafts) which is required for most commerical ships.

An hour is a long time, considering the fact we had a USCG airstation 30 miles away, we had two USCG boat stations about 6 miles away, so with the VHF notification, with the beacon from the EPIRB should have made it rather quick deal (my boat gets 20 miles out in an hour).
 
I fly with an individual who ditched a PC-12 in the Sea of Okhotsk. The PT-6 only had 250 hours on it, but the airplane stayed afloat for nearly 2.5 hours! He says the airplane faired quite well all points considered. We fly throughout mountainous terrain(i.e. ID, MT, OR, WA, NV etc.) and we do fly this at night. Flying over central ID at night is most likely death 1: life 0. You either jump in the frying pan or you don't. Sometimes planning will only scare you of the obvious outcome before it happens.
 
So when that PC-12 was below us 120miles offshore he really was shark bait, ...after floating for 1.5 hours off course. (LOL)You brought up an important point, look at the reliability stats carry-on and don't worry about it. If what you don't want to happen happens then just deal with it.
 
O.K., I gota chime in. The guys with the biggest cajones are the ones that fly offshore from Maine and Mass. to guy fish spotting for tuna and swords. They all use single engine planes (c-152, super cubs, etc) and they don't always look like the newest models in the fleet, if you get what I mean. When you are 250 miles offshore at 1000 msl you tend to hear every burp the engine makes, and then some. The only thing that has come close to me for that feeling is flying over mountains at night, IFR. I guess one positive side is when your offshore like that you're generally working with a boat but it can be a long flight to get to the boats. I made it to about 400 hours and then couldn't do it anymore. We use to have rafts and survival suits but I always wondered if I'd have been able to get a raft out of a c-172 or supercub after I'd ditched. Another hazard was midairs. If you were one a good sized school of fish there were almost always 2 or 3 other planes all trying to guide boats onto the fish. When you're looking at fish it's tough to look for traffic....
 
Feb. AOPA magazine has an interesting article about a full blown engine failure in a Bonaza and how he handled it. Lucky for him it was a typical VFR Florida day.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom