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Shark bait

TurboS7

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All you guys that fly single-engine turbine aircraft over water-how do you feel about that. We always laugh and say to each other "shark bait" when we are 125 miles off the coast and we have a single engine PT-12 or whatever below us. It may be turbine but I have had tons of flameouts and have had the guts of them puke out more that once. For that matter how do all you mountainair guys feel about flying SE in the mountains down to LIFR on your freight runs?
 

Willie

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We stay close.

In the T-34C, most of us stay pretty close to the shore; close enough to dead engine glide to the beach. I've never been more than 15 or 20 miles off shore in the turbo weenie, but that was at an altitude of 10k or so and on the way into Key West, so I would have just swam the rest of the way to Duval Street.

We get a lot of vectors for approach that are over the water here at Pensacola, and we just try to keep our speed up to give us a little more time if something happens to the PT-6. A couple of the Air Force types refuse vectors over the water at night (heh heh) but that's the exception. We Navy types will just keep making fun of them until one of us has to ditch, then we'll realize they were right all along.
 

XJAVRO

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I don't even like going over water in a twin. You ETOPS guys have a screw loose.
 

avbug

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Personally, it doesn't bother me much. I've never been big on water (never cared for heights, either), but if the choice is a forced landing in the water, or in the rocks in a canyon, or anywhere...most of the time it matters very little. What you do after the forced landing matters, but having the equipment to deal with the event after the fact makes the biggest difference. Having raft, suit, water, mirror, and the works, makes a difference.

If the airplane goes down at night over the hills, or it goes down in the day over the waves, it doesn't matter a whole lot. Down is down, broken up is broken up. Letting people know where you are, always planning for that eventuality in a real-time awareness that it could happen, and being prepared for the event when it does, is what counts.
 

InHot

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AVBUG & Ditching

You know, in order to make use of your survival skills and equipment you must first survive impact.

Just how much experience/training do you have in emergency egress out of a sinking aircraft? From your post it would seem you are quite comfortable with a ditching scenario.

Would you elaborate where you gained this composure?

Being aware of the background and experience of someone with such strong opinions would help me with my decision as to whether to lend any veracity to them or to simply dismiss what has been opined.

Right now I'm leaning towards the latter.

BTW I'm a retired Marine Corps aviator with over a year of living on and flying off of BGBs.
 
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Huck

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When I first got on the DC-10 I spent a day doing emergency drills, the slide, and discussing ditching. Somewhere towards the end they mentioned that there has never been a succesful wide-body ditching. Something to think about in the tracks south of Greenland some cold winter night....
 

TurboS7

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You know what the difference is between flying the North Atlantic in the summer vs. the winter. During the summer if you ditch you will live 5 minutes, during the winter you will live 1 minute. As for landing I'll dead-stick the 738 down the glacier on the Greenland mainland before I even think of putting it in the water. Neither is a great prospect but since I fly the route at least twice a month I have to think about something.;)
 

T-handle

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Great Whites

I used to instruct/fly in the San Francisco Bay Area. Off the bay area coast, about 40-50 miles is a small island chain(Farrollon islands) that is a refuge haven to seals. Consider, that part of the Pacific Ocean is cooler and is a PRIME feeding ground for Great White Sharks. Every year thousands of seals will flock to this island and great whites will just hang around the shores enjoying a tasty feast.

At our flight school we always dared one another to fly a twin to the islands and back to check for sharks. I would've hate to have ditched an aircraft ANYwhere near this area.

Btw, there are a few boat companies that offer services to swim with these Great Whites in cages. Seriously.... they'll ship ya out there, drop a big ol steel cage in the water, bloody up the water, and you hop in the cage and watch these massive sharks swim around you. :)
 

BluesClues

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I also used to instruct in the SFO/Bay area. We used to call the approach in MRY the shark bait arrival since ATC would take you down to about 2500 feet or so and SEVERAL miles off shore. Geez, the things I used to do to fill my logbook.:eek:
 

Freight Dog

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You should see flight training in Hawaii. Cross country flights... well, unless you are on the Big Island where you can go from Kona to Hilo, you have to go off-shore. Everywhere else, you go off-island. Primary students in Hawaii fly their first cross country from Honolulu to Lana'i, all over water. Or say from Honolulu to Lihue on Kauai. Now the waters off-shore here are WAY WAY choppier than anything I've seen in California, Florida and the Carolinas. Granted, the water here is also 78-80 degrees year round, but currents and rough seas would definitely be no fun.

Gotta give it to the people who fly little beater Cessnas and Pipers around here.
 

avbug

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Inhot,

My specific background (and me) is of little consequence, but yes, I am comfortable, as much as one can be, with the prospect. As much as dealing with in flight fires and structural failures, systems losses, powerplant failures, etc. I have direct personal experience in each area, and while we all certainly hope to only deal with such eventualities in a simulator or the classroom, I have learned by expeience that most all such scenarios are not necessarily emergencies, but learning moments of intensity.

Aside from water training, I have practical experience putting airplanes in the water, as a floatplane pilot. I also have practical experience getting from the water into a raft, floating for extended periods without support gear, and swimming in flight gear. This also includes water jumps and water work with parachutes and jump equipment. This should be minimal training for anyone considering overflight of large expanses of water, and in the very least, specific training with the equipment to be used.

The point of my previous post is that for the most part, it matters little where the forced landing under adverse conditions occus, because ultimately you're likely to die. I've spent considerable time working airplanes in very low visibility close to the ground in rough terrain. Under such conditions it takes very little to put an airplane in the hillside, and it is very rarely survivable. The same for night work in the mountains, or low level, or low level night work. Over water work presents it's own unique hazards, not the least of which is drowning.

Impact issues and hydraulic forces may excessivley damage structures, trap occupants, and the environment may lead to hypothermia and death even if escape is successfully made. Emergency water landings have unique risks such as depth perception, which may cause some spectacular failures when attempting to approach the surface. Glassy water scenarios are one such example.

One may survive impact, only to be unable to properly use survival or lifesupport equipment. I was acquainted with an individual years ago who successfully ejected from an aircraft, but broke both arms upon exiting the airplane. The high speed ejection, and subsequent physical injury prevented him from activating his LPU on impact with the water, and despite being conscious, he drowned. Now, water activated LPU's are standard. Then, they weren't. All he needed to do was pull a little cord, and instead, he slowly drowned.

Is ditching a minor deal? No. It's a big deal. However, my response was that it doesn't bother me much. I've spent much of my career working in high risk situations, and working in high risk employment. One could spend all day becoming neurotic dwelling on the risk, or one might spend all day working professionally to mitigate the risk. I choose the latter. It doesn't bother me, because I have more important things to think about. I have routinely been in situations in which equipment failures or other concerns would cause situations to develop, about which I could do nothing. If one can do nothing, then one shouldn't worry. One should concentrate on situations that can be dealt with, and leave impossibilities to fate, and to the preventative measures taken to keep fate at bay.

I don't care which way you're leaning. Have you something to contribute to the question at hand, or is the time best spent attacking the credibility of other posters? How do you feel about single engine work over mountains, at night, and over water? I believe that was the question, not what avbug did to feed his family for the past xxx years. What avbug did doesn't really matter, nor does avbug. I don't care for being in the water, over the water, or on the water. That doesn't prevent me from being there, as needed. I don't care for heights, either. That doesn't prevent me from flying an airplane, or exiting an airplane when occasion permits, or the need arises. In short, no; I don't let those things bother me.

Save your veracity. Dismiss the opinions if you find them too strong. Others do.
 

Cornelius

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Sharks are a very big problem on the West Coast from Ukiah on down to the cape of Baja. I've windsurfed in the San Francisco bay area for the last two years and have been dead frighetened to even go outside the Golden Gate Bridge. Even around that bridge, the warden (great white shark) has been spotted chomping on seals just underneith the bridge. I have sailed around Bodega bay Half Moon Bay out on the coast and when I fall in the water, I try to get up and going 30 mph as fast as possible. Beaches are closed on numerous occasions year around due to great whites patrolling the shore line.

Los Barrilles, Baja Mexico I've spent a lot of time windsurfing down there to. What I can tell you is I have spotted at least 2 Maco Sharks, which are deadly, and I windsurfed right by their arse. They are smaller than the Great Whites but they are mean buggers. Again when I fall in the water, I get scared and try to get up fast to avoid the sharks and the mast high sets.

My conclusion is, eventhough you survive a ditch, if you aren't in a raft you are in some big trouble. If hypothermia doesn't snuff you out, the sharks will. My saying is, "The only good shark is the one in my shark fin soup."
 

BluesClues

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Cornelius, you've definately gotta set of solid brass ones. I've spotted lots of sharks all up and down the coast from the air. You wouldn't catch me cruising the waves down there! :D
 

InHot

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[QUOTE...The point of my previous post is that for the most part, it matters little where the forced landing under adverse conditions occus, because ultimately you're likely to die. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bubba, The above quote goes to my point in my original post. It seems such a fatalistic approach to flying. I've never met a pilot who approaches a flight with this attitude. Yes, there are some dicey circumstances we may encounter; extended overwater opeations, flight in mountainous terrain, etc.

There have been times I've thought "I'm s*****d if I lose an engine now." And what did I do when I experienced that thought? If not able to change my environment immediately I devised a course of action should the worst happen, so that I knew what actions I would take to minimize aircraft damage and maximize our chances of survival.

Of course we should always go into these situations thinking ahead, anticipating the problems and thinking through our actions prior to experiencing them.

I flew Cobras with two engines. However the two engines were splined to 1 transmission. Lose an engine, no big problem, you could fly single engine (although you couldn't hover, which would require a slide on landing on the ship, which the Air Boss may or may not approve, but that's another issue).

About the transmission, lose that and you immediately transition from a flying object to a falling object that is breaking apart as it comes down. A bad thing. Procedure for an impending transmission failure (chip light) was to land IMMEDIATELY (not ASAP, but now!). That meant if you were over water, you were going to get wet real quick.

So how did we handle that? We trained, we planned, we discussed. We went to water survival every 4 years. We endured the helo dunker where we practiced exiting an inverted sinking aircraft while blindfolded, wearing all our flight gear. We prefighted our survival equipment, we wore our anti-exposure suits, we always knew where we were and where the boat was.

Point is, we did not put out of our minds the possibility of ditching , rather we thought about it every time we strapped in (probably more so at night) and we knew what we would do should it happen.

Same goes for TERF flying. We perfomed map studies, we learned the terrain, we understood the capabilites of our aircraft, and our own. We discussed, planned and then flew the missions.

And despite all of this I know lots of dead pilots, guys who have drowned in aircraft, those who have flown into the ground and died of "blunt force trauma, " guys who have died screaming as they burned to death. I also know guys who have survived these same scenarios.

So yeah, when I flew over water, or in montainous terrain at low altitude, and now when I rotate at Vr with 50 pax in my airliner I think about all these things.

But I continue to fly because I believe in myself, my training and the equipment I operate.
 

LearLove

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SHARKS THEN AND NOW

SINCE IM TRYING TO FIND AN EXCUSE TO PUT OFF DOING THE WASH AND CLEANING MY APARTMENT I'LL PLAY.

I AGREE WITH YOU GUYS 100%, BUT A FEW YEARS AGO I WOULD HAVE SAID YOU WERE WHIMPS.

I GREW UP SURFING ON THE JERSEY/MD/VA SHORE AND OFTEN SAW AND SURFED ALONG WITH SHARKS. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE THESE WERE LEPORD SHARKS (KIND OF LIKE BLUE SHARKS) OF 4 TO 6 FEET. SOMETIMES A GREY TIP WOULD SHOW UP.

NOW JUST TO PROVE THE IDIOT TEENAGER THEORY I (WE) WOULD OFTEN SURF IN THE EVENING AT NIGHT OFF THE FISHING PIERS WHERE THE FISHERMAN WERE CLEANING THE DAYS CATCH AND THROWING THE SCRAPS OVER.

ONE EVENING WE WERE OUT AND IT WAS FLAT. WE SAW FINS IN THE SURF AND YOURS TRUELY WENT SWIMMING AFTER THEM. I NEVER COUGHT THEM BUT IT JUST PROVES THE ABOVE THEORY. KNOW THAT I THINK OF IT THAT COULD ALSO BE THE REASON IT TOOK ME 5 YEARS (PLUS SUMMER CLASSES) TO GET THRU COLLEGE.

WHILE I WAS A SENIOR IN COLLEGE I GOT A JOB TOWING BANNERS OVER THE SAME BEACHES. NEEDLESS TO SAY, I DON'T SURF MUCH ANYMORE. (THERE'S LOT O SHARKS OUT THERE)


THE EAST COAST SHARK ROUTE (V139 BETWEEN SEY AND HTO) OFFERS A GOOD VIEW. WHEN YOU TAKEOFF FROM ISP IN LATE SUMMER YOU CAN SEE SCHOOLS OF SHARKS OFF FIRE ISLAND TRAILING THE SHRIMP AND OTHER FISHING BOATS LOOKING FOR SCRAPS. THE SAME AS YOU GET DOWN TO JERSEY (BETWEEN BLM AND ACY). IT MAKES THE PHL-ISP ROUND TRIPS MORE FUN.


TAKE CARE

FLY/SWIM SAFE
 
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avbug

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It's nice to be able to study terrain maps and prepare to go into a place. I've never had that luxury. Often we didn't know where we were going when we took off; we would be given a rought direction and some lat long coordinates enroute. We didn't know where we'd be recovering to, either. Studying terrain wouldn't help. The arena was far too big, and the targets far too general to prepare, and the visibility far too low to worry about it.

I'm not a fatalist, nor do I have a bad attitude. Some of my more recent work has been in an industry that has lost up to 10% of it's people on an annual basis, and could be considered by some to be high risk. Generally when an accident occurs, it's not survivable. Therefore, we train and prepare and fly such that we do all we can to avoid an accident.

However, when you're in an airplane that's not very maneuverable, that's 50 years old and spares and new parts haven't been built for 49 of those years, and you're in a tight canyon in moderate to severe turbulence in near zero visibility, with a climb capability on all engines of 100 fpm, with flames 100-200' above your working altitude, maneuvering at 200' or less, with objects flying around in there on fire the size of 2X4's and even the size of trees, in close proximity to a number of other aircraft...there are a number of factors that are outside your control.

You concentrate on what you can deal with, and do NOT worry about what you can't. There is only one way to make such an operation safe; stay on the ground. When it's one's livliehood, one doesn't sit on the ground. One is pilot, firefighter, crewchief, mechanic, navigator, and engineer, using a crew of 2 in an airplane designed to be flown by a crew of 11.

I'm far from fatalistic. However, the above is one of a number of different assignments I've had which do involve risk, much of which cannot be changed or taken away. Some has been over fire, some over water. Some over the desert, most in the mountains. Much of it has been low level. I learned to fly formation UNDER powerlines as part of learning to fly ag, and was employed in that capacity; it was my first job after high school and I started it at age 18.

Fatalistic believing that there is nothing you can do. Realistic is having been in the business and having buried enough friends and competitors to know there are times that there is nothing you can do. Realistic is knowing when those times are, and knowing enough about what you're doing to know that you needn't dwell on those times.

It's nice to always have an out. There are jobs that don't permit an out, where you are quite simply out of luck if something goes wrong. I have enough experience in those jobs to understand that, and to know that there are more important tasks to concentrate on at such times than contemplating the potential disasters that might befall me. Simply put, I do my job, and do it the best I can. Once I have done all I can, I needn't fear.

Yes, I've spent time in the water in gear, training in egress, training in survival. I've spent time in the hills in the summer and winter training in survival, and in the desert. I've spent time doing the same thing in the rainforest, and other places. I carry gear, I plan ahead.

You want fatalistic? The aircraft I flew into the fires, above, was old. Every flammable fluid and ignition source in the aircraft, safe the engine oil tanks, was in the cockpit with me. The single source of all the system hydraulics was in a tank behind me. The fuel came in from the wings, entered the boost pumps, and went back out to the wings. The boost pump boxes sat atop the inverters; a leak and there would be a fire. Every accumulator in the airplane was right behind us in the cockpit. The fuel gages were made of glass, were sight gages, and were in the cockpit. Beneath us was the APU; a 54 year old 2 cylinder ranger engine; it was directly beneath our seats. In the cockpit was a large janitrol heater, fed with avgas, in the floor, out in the open; it tended to catch fire from time to time. The wings on that airplane had a history of leakage. We did much better than the services which had them before; we didn't have nearly the problems because we took better care of the equipment, but it still wasn't unheard of to have the bomb bay fill with avgas.

Every compressed gas, every flammable fluid, every source of ignition, right there with us in the cockpit. Our egress was right in front of the #2 and #3 propellers. Historically,when those airplanes did go in, it was invariably in the conditions previously indicated. Fatalistic is knowing that eveyrbody has died. Fatalistic might even be knowing that since 1969, 135% of the tanker pilots have died. That's everybody and a third of those that started. One individual survived a P-2 wreck for almost a day, three years ago, but died on scene. (He was wearing green nomex, which made him hard to find at the wreck site, and was unable to be located prior to his death). Fatalistic is throwing one's hands in the air and stating with apathy, "oh well, I guess I'm next."

I'm not fatalistic. I'm realistic. I know the risks, and I fly such that I attempt to mitigate them. I carried a full complement of spares on board. I carried tools. I'm a fully certificated mechanic and inspector, and have had to work on the airplane in flight during malfunctions and emergencies. Being prepared means being prepared for anything, and I hardly see that as fatalistic.

However, once one has been put in the situation of making a forced landing or ditching, one knows that either it will be successful, or not. If not, then it's out of your hands. You do what you can, and if you survive, you make the best of it. If you don't, then you needn't worry because you're dead. Only your family need worry.

Should one worry about that when flying over terrain, over water, or at night? I dont' believe so. I take care of that by planning ahead where ever possible, but certainly not be worrying about it at the time. I don't spend a moment in a piston or turboprop or turbojet when not considering what to do if something goes amiss. I consider forced landing sites, alternatives, and the effects of control and systems failures. Any good pilot does. However, to say that because one doesn't worry or fear the possibility of powerplant, systems, or structural failure is fatalistic, or naive, is misplaced. I am not naive, fatalistic, or misplaced.

I'll close what should have gone without saying, by adding that I don't contemplate forced landings and ditchings based on theoritical knowledge, or a simulator, or a dunk tank. I base it on actual experience. I have landed airplanes on several occasions without power due to failures. I have had 10 failures in single engine airplanes, and a host of failures in multis. I have experienced them in piston powered aircraft, turboprop powered aircraft, and have yet to experience anything highly significant in a turbojet (aside from minor system failures and a firelight). Dealing with such situations is not new, nor exciting to me. It is par for the course, and if one is prepared for the eventuality, then one need not panic at the first sign of trouble.

Part of being a professional aviator is planning such that the emergency situation be comes a matter of routine or at the worst, abnormality. I am not fatalistic, but there are far worse things than dying, and far worse things than dying in an airplane.
 

ShawnC

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Well I don't know about ditching an aircraft but I have extensive expierence with boating expierence (I've had one sink under me) and I will say that the sea is nothing you want to ditch in no matter where you are even with an EPIRB Cat II(about 2 generations better than the ELT), and a Mayday it took the Coasties over an hour to get to us and we were only 4 miles offshore. Also the raft wasn't that much to shelter, and I would never want to be on it for any time longer.
 

ifly4food

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avbug said:
My specific background (and me) is of little consequence...
I don't care which way you're leaning. Have you something to contribute to the question at hand, or is the time best spent attacking the credibility of other posters?...
Save your veracity. Dismiss the opinions if you find them too strong. Others do.

May I offer a suggestion, Avbug?
Just answer the question. Tell us a little about your background. Tell us how you came by this wealth of information you seem to have. We don't need specifics or incriminating info.
You dodged his question. And you have dodged that question many times before. I ask why, and please spare me the "I don't care if you believe me" speech again. You are very opinionated, and you seem to have "been there". OTH, we have seen posters before that just read every aviation story out there and could quote any one of them. I don't know if this is the case, and I really don't care, however, don't be upset when people continue to question your credibility if you won't share your qualifications with us.
And don't waste bandwith chiding posters who challenge your credibility if you won't give them something in return.
Cheers.
 

avbug

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This thread didn't ask for facts; it asked for opinions. It didn't ask for specific advice, proceedures, or anything else. Just how we feel. I responded that personally, I don't feel it's a big concern. The response, to which my last post was directed, asked where I gained this "composure."

First, I have never once claimed to be an expert in any specific area, nor to have a "wealth" of experience. I have elaborated specifically on numbers of failures, types of training, and so forth. Is a resume required? There are things I will most certainly discuss at length, and things which I will not, and cannot discuss.

Yes, I have ditching experience, yes I have water landing experience. Yes, I have survival experience, asked and answered. I don't see that it matters, but for the insanely curious, yes, yes, yes.

Among previous assignments have been corporate, charter, scheduled work, back country work, air ambulance, banner towing, glider towing, packing parachutes, tossing skydivers, aerial firefighting, government work in several capacities, search and rescue, aerial photography, ag work (crop dusting), aircraft maintenance, flight instruction, some limited ferry work, cargo/freight, animal tracking, weather modification, and other misc duties.

Recently there was an extensive thread where everyone could post their life history and significance in the world. Such a question appeals to the ego; I chose not to post there for some time, and finally left a self-depreciating comment strictly about myself, rather than comment on the nature of the thread. I felt that was more than adequate, and it's about as much as I care to discuss about myself. I am not an expert, I am not the messiah of aviation, and what I have to say does not require or merit defense or support.

You already sent me private messages threatening to censor or delete my postings, have accused me on several occasions of performing "rants," which indicate fits of uncontrolled childish behavior, and have indicated that I may not be allowed to post on the site any more. If something I have to say so deeply offends you, by all means have the webmaster notify me, and I'll be happy to go elsewhere. If posting here means a dissection of avbug for it's own sake, then I'll go elsewhere, anyway.

How is it that others can post opinions here, which are often in the extreme, but haven't been deeply put under the microscope? If I wanted to be under the microscope, I'd opt for the lecture circuit. Except that I'm really no one to be on such a circuit, and no one of consequence. I've been asked to address a few college classes and the like, and quite honestly, I don't care for the attention. I would much rather write what I have to say in relative anonymity, and be done with it. If that means having to defend every word with explaination, details, dates names, faces, and the like, then it is simply not worth it.

If I were someone who posted misc. information from other sources, would it matter? I don't, and when I have used other sources, I've identified the source (eg, Aviation & Space Weekly, etc). But I still don't see that it matters. This isn't even an issue that should be had outside a private posting. Not a soul has ever sent me a private posting asking for my background and experience, but a number have posted me and emailed me to discuss topics. I have to believe that this is because the topics are far more important than am I; this is how it should be. This is how it is.

There are technical questions which I sometimes respond to, along with others. Many times the answers to those questions don't come off the top of my head. I refer to other sites, books, data bases. I research the answer, and indeed, this is a large part of the reason I participate here, and other sites. I use the question to force myself to dig into the book; it's an incentive to study. Again, that's really nobodies affair but my own.

Perhaps you don't like the way I write? Send me to school. I have no education. I could use one. Don't like my language? There's no excessive profanity, no language of excitability, no ranting. But it's the best I can do. I already apologised to you privately for ever becoming involved in any discussions outside the technical; perhaps this topic, "how do you feel?," is far too controversial, and I have overstepped my bounds. Perhaps a private apology is not acceptable; my most sincere apolgoies, then, in public.

There is more to type, but it would be wasteful. I do not have a need to defend being me. I was born who I am, and have spent a lifetime being who I am, for better or worse. There are far more useful topics on the board to discuss than "avbug" and what he does or did for a living. Personally, I find it difficult to believe that anybody really cares. Perhaps that's just a symptom of the turn of the decade furloughs....too much time. Certainly so if folks are worried about my private life.

Now, I will not discuss this any more. Have we something significant to discuss? I believe the general direction of this thread was leaning toward sharks....I don't like them, they scare me to death, I hope to never be close to them, and I prefer the water from the shore. To those who surf and swim with them, more power to you, best of luck, but it makes me uncomfortable to watch...come ashore and I'll buy you a drink on dry land, and we can talk flying all day long. Good enough??
 

ifly4food

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I didn't think my post was unreasonable. I apoligize, because obviously you did. However, you still didn't answer the question. I guess it doesn't matter. I'm trying to help you here.
As you said, some will listen, some will not. I guess those that will listen can make up their own minds.

Just to answer your question "How is it that others can post opinions here, which are often in the extreme, but haven't been deeply put under the microscope?", the reason is because the majority of them have chosen to share a profile with us, and justify their remarks from a point of experience. You refuse to share anything except vague "been there, done that" statements and refuse to back up your comments. This invites scrutiny, and posters question you, flame you, and create work for me. That's where I come into this. Don't get upset when someone questions your credibility if you won't give it out, and don't think you're the only one who is questioned.
I'm only trying to make things a little smoother here. Take my advice or leave it, as you would say.

However, I do agree that this has gone way off topic. Enough of this. Back to sharks.
 
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