Settle the dispute

[GravityHater]

You are on vectors and an assigned altitude and call the field in sight about 10-20 miles out.
You are told to turn as desired to "intercept and track the localizer inbound".
You do not get "cleared for (any type) approach"

a) You can descend at will
b) You must remain at the last assigned altitude
c) Some other option.

I thought it was b), compadre thinks it is a); tell me why one of us is wrong.

Thanks, tell me if you need more info.
Couldn't find 'track the localizer inbound' in the PCG.
Is there another reference for common phrases?

 

[81Horse]

You are right. Your compadre is wrong because he's wrong.

Also, per the AIM:

4-4-9. Adherence to Clearance
a. When air traffic clearance has been obtained under either visual or instrument flight rules, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall not deviate from the provisions thereof unless an amended clearance is obtained.​

And the assigned altitude is part of your clearance -- until superseded by an approach clearance, or other amendment.​

 

[GravityHater]

Well thats one vote, I will close the thread there and run to him with the answer! Just joking, but it will be hard to convince him - he is stubborn, arrogant and a know-it-all. No 'give' when it comes to interpretation and opinion. I hope I don't get crotchety inflexible and mean when I get older.
Actually I'm not sure I will bring it up again, I mainly just want to know so I can do the right thing myself.

But if it was to come up again it would be a lot easier if I could say, Hmmm, lets see what the (insert accepted 'bible' on these things) (or what some highly respected person) says."

Any references? Otherwise its his word against mine plus "some other guy on the internet, right!", if you know what I mean.

 

[AngelKing]

I second it, must remain at last assigned altitude.


AK

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Yup... Gotta stay at your last assigned altitude until cleared an approach (visual or instrument).

 

[CaptETWes]

5-4-7. Instrument Approach Procedures

b. When operating on an unpublished route or while being radar vectored, the pilot, when an approach clearance is received, shall, in addition to complying with the minimum altitudes for IFR operations (14 CFR Section 91.177), maintain the last assigned altitude unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC, or until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP. After the aircraft is so established, published altitudes apply to descent within each succeeding route or approach segment unless a different altitude is assigned by ATC. Notwithstanding this pilot responsibility, for aircraft operating on unpublished routes or while being radar vectored, ATC will, except when conducting a radar approach, issue an IFR approach clearance only after the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or IAP, or assign an altitude to maintain until the aircraft is established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure. For this purpose, the procedure turn of a published IAP shall not be considered a segment of that IAP until the aircraft reaches the initial fix or navigation facility upon which the procedure turn is predicated.​

I'd say take this to your compadre. You cannot descend until cleared for an approach (visual or otherwise) until on a published segment of that approach, in this case the Loc. Cheers.

 

[timeoff]

FWIW, I've gotten "N123 turn left xxx, maintain xxx, join the localizer"......then the next transmission is "N123 contact tower on xxx.xx". Happens daily here at the MCO tracon.

I agree that it is not a clearance to decend as your last clearance was to maintain xxx. It is merely a clearance to join a published course (just like a vector to an airway). There is a reason that controllers won't spit out the approach clearance at that specific time. Why? I don't know.

I would get out the AFD and call up the tracon yourself and ask them. They can clear it up in just a few minutes. They are usually pretty cool about pilots calling with questions. I called about a TFR once and the MCO supe spent 15 minutes with me, pulling out references and reading over them with me. He admitted he learned something about the TFR also.

OR....PM Hold West. He seems to know his stuff.

 

[wrxpilot]

I just had that same question on my IFR written. The FAA says it is B (remain at last assigned altitude) until you are given the magic words, "Cleared for the approach".

 

[GravityHater]

The only way I will convince this guy of anything is if he has it happen and actually gets busted. Even then he will argue with the judge probably!
Thanks, at least I will have the knowledge to keep my own record clean.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

The only way I will convince this guy of anything is if he has it happen and actually gets busted. Even then he will argue with the judge probably!
Thanks, at least I will have the knowledge to keep my own record clean.

If he is too stupid to read the reg book, then it is only a matter of time before he gets a certified letter from the feds.

Sounds like he is treating the described clearance like a "Cleared for visual approach" , very good way to get somebody killed in many parts of the country. Please tell us where this bozo flies normally so we can be on the look out for him! I have a strong aversion against aerial impacts!

 

[siucavflight]

Your compadre sounds like he displays many of the hazardous attitudes, I would report him to the FAA.

 

[desertdog71]

Well, my first thought is B also. Many people have documented that as well. However, unless you are proud, you cam always ask for a clarification from ATC if you wish.

 

[minitour]

I agree with everyone.

Maintain the last assigned altitude...you weren't given a different one.

"Track ___" isn't an approach clearance.

I'd maintain the altitude until cleared for an approach or cleared to land...whichever comes first.

-mini

PS
If it's a 2 pilot plane/operation, just key the mic (if he's flying) and say "okay join the loc inbound maintain XXX, N123" Then if he goes down, it's on the tapes too...just a recommendation. Your choice in the end.

 

[Pilot_Ryan]

This one's a no-brainer, cut-and-dried. Descending without clearance is not only a bad idea, it's prohibited and could/should result in an enforcement action if the reason is sheer ignorance. Your buddy's a tool if he thinks otherwise in the fact of clear evidence to the contrary.

 

[b82rez]

PS
If it's a 2 pilot plane/operation, just key the mic (if he's flying) and say "okay join the loc inbound maintain XXX, N123" Then if he goes down, it's on the tapes too...just a recommendation. Your choice in the end.

Great tip dude

 

[avbug]

Thus far, to a man, every responder is correct. An ATC clearance directing you to intercept the localizer is not in any way, shape, or form, an altitude clearance. It's a lateral navigation clearance. You've been given a clearance to intercept the localizer and track it inbound (or outbound, as your clearance might be under any given circumstance) as a form of navigation. You have not been given any clearance that ammends of alters your last altitude assignment.

Think of any typical arrival. You may be cleared via XXX arrival, but that is not a clearance to fly the published altitudes. You are cleared for lateral navigation only...you must disregard the published altitudes unless told to "descend via XXX arrival. The same applies when told to intercept the localizer. You have not yet been given any clearance that ammends your last altitude assignment. Until you receive such a clearance, you may not descend, ascend, or even a little of both.

§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

If you're not certain, obtaining clarification from ATC isn't just a good idea; it's a legal requirement on your part.

If you're acting as PIC and this compadre is your SIC, don't let him cow you down...it's your show; do it properly. If you're flying as SIC and this compadre is really the PIC, and insists of such flagrant violations of basic airmanship, then you need to have a discussion with your chief pilot regarding the matter. You also need to refuse to fly with this individual until he or she is properly educated.

From FAA H-8083-15, Instrument Flying Handbook, Chapter 10:

Once you know which approach you will execute, you should plan for the descent prior to the initial approach fix (IAF) or transition route depicted on the IAP. When flying the transition route, maintain the last assigned altitude until you hear “cleared for the approach” and have intercepted a segment of the approach. You may “request lower” to bring your transition route closer to the required altitude for the initial approach altitude. When ATC uses the phrase, “at pilot’s discretion” in the altitude information of a clearance, you have the option to start a descent at any rate, and you may level off temporarily at any intermediate altitude. However, once you have vacated an altitude, you may not return to that altitude. When ATC has not used the term “at pilot’s discretion” nor imposed any descent restrictions, you should initiate descent promptly upon acknowledgment of the clearance.

From FAA H-8261-1, Instrument Proceedures Handbook, Chapter 4:

It is in circumstances like this that you may be tempted to use the minimum safe altitude (MSA) shown in the planview, although the MSA is for emergency use only, and is not an operational altitude unless you are specifically cleared to that altitude. The ILS procedure relies heavily on the controller's recognition of the restriction upon you to maintain your last assigned altitude until "established" on a published segment of the approach. To be "established" means to be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc. The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) definition of established is considered as being within half full scale deflection for the ILS and VOR, or within ±5° of the required bearing for the nondirectional radio beacon (NDB). Generally, the controller assigns an altitude compatible with glide slope intercept prior to being cleared for the approach.

From the same source and chapter, we read the following; note that being able to descend is predicated on being cleared for the approach (intercepting the localizer is NOT an approach clearance), and upon being established on a published route segment...both must apply. If you establish yourself on a published route segment, you may not vacate your last assigned altitude until cleared to do so. For the purposes of descending on an approach, you must be cleared for the approach, or specifically cleared to descend in accordance with the approach:

Remember during arrivals, when cleared for an instrument approach, maintain the last assigned altitude until you are established on a published segment of the approach. If you are already on a published segment, you can descend to its minimum altitude.

Again from the same reference and chapter, we read the following:

Upon your arrival in the terminal area, ATC either clears you to a specific altitude, or they give you a descend via clearance that instructs you to follow the altitudes published on the STAR. You are not authorized to leave your last assigned altitude unless specifically cleared to do so. If ATC amends the altitude or route to one that is different from the published procedure, the rest of the charted descent procedure is canceled. ATC will assign you any further route, altitude, or airspeed clearances, as necessary.

From the same source, in the appendix glossary:

Descend Via – A descend via clearance instructs you to follow the altitudes published on a STAR. You are not authorized to leave your last assigned altitude unless specifically cleared to do so. If ATC amends the altitude or route to one that is different from the published procedure, the rest of the charted descent procedure is canceled. ATC will assign you any further route, altitude, or airspeed clearances, as necessary.

 

[Tonala2k]

Hater, this could be hard, but might work. If you get in the same situation again, convince your compa to confirm he's cleared for the approach when he gets the call. The controller if busy will reply, "N123AB, turn as desired to intercept and track the localizer inbound." Your compa will then say, "See?" Think he has won. Then say "I want to hear the words cleared for XYZ approach." You challenge ATC, then say"NO!!!" and your compa will say, "Way to go. You just canceled our clearance."

 

[81Horse]

I see a few posts here offering advice to save the captain's ego. This is not a situation where an FO can afford to dance around the niceties; this is a potentially fatal misunderstanding of basic IFR rules and procedures on the captain's part.

In this situation, the FO has to achieve some clarity -- even at the risk of a major confrontation on the ground later.

I do like the suggestion to get yourself on record with ATC about maintaining the altitude. Before it gets to that point, though, an astute FO could just ask. "Approach, how soon can we expect an approach clearance?"

Even if the problem can be finessed in the air, the captain needs some education; whether you have to fly with him again or not, he still represents a safety concern. If you have a Pro Standards committee, go there. If you don't, go to your CP or someone of authority in your training department.

 

[GravityHater]

All good ideas, thanks.

BTW, you know, this pilot is overall an excellent airman. Fantastic record of many years of safe flying in anything from a Cessna 120 to decent size jets left seat. I am not about to condemn him as a failure in flight over one thing he got wrong. I'd hope no one would do that to me.

Now if a person refuses to either learn or listen, won't provide countering arguments and evidence to support their ideas, and are simply arrogant about being 'right', they are displaying unsafe attitudes and yes I would have to condemn them for that.

The ideas you gave me should allow me to sort this out and keep you me and him safe and less importantly, not squash anyone's ego.

 

[81Horse]

Well said, GravityHater. You seem to have a good handle on this issue.