Settle a Debate-VOR Checks?

[Rick James]

For those flying "glass" airplanes using GPS and/or IRU's, do yo perform VOR checks? I'm of the opinion that it's required as we list it on our equipment suffix(s) and the FMS(s) use information from the VOR's. I can't find anything in writing to support my position, any help? Thanks!

 

[Hawker800]

Yes we do.

 

[pilotyip]

For 135 ops to fly under Op Spec B-43/35, with a single GPS, you must have functioning redundant class I Navigation displayed in the cockpit. Normally VOR on the RMI and F/O's panel. Therefore it must be checked and logged every 40 days.

 

[LJ45]

we do, but is it necessay with glass? I have never seen one that needed adjustment.

 

[BoilerUP]

VOR check, as in the 30-day VOR check that is required per 91.171?

Aircraft using GPS for navigation have to have backup navigation:

(b) Aircraft using GPS navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the flight. Active monitoring of alternative navigation equipment is not required if the GPS receiver uses RAIM for integrity monitoring. Active monitoring of an alternate means of navigation is required when the RAIM capability of the GPS equipment is lost.

I'll be the first to admit I have no idea how an IRU applies to the situation, but I'd suspect the Administrator would want 30-day VOR checks performed even on planes with IRUs

 

[Rick James]

VOR check, as in the 30-day VOR check that is required per 91.171?

Aircraft using GPS for navigation have to have backup navigation:

[/FONT]

I'll be the first to admit I have no idea how an IRU applies to the situation, but I'd suspect the Administrator would want 30-day VOR checks performed even on planes with IRUs

91.171-Yes, that's what Im referring to (Part 91 operators). The AIM reference is interesting, but is it regulatory?

 

[LJ45]

just do a dual check every 30 days, we do it every couple of weeks and note it in our log. not a big deal and you are covered.

 

[GravityHater]

One question I have always had is, we have two radios and 3 heads.
When we do the dual check, do we have to check and log each of the 3 heads?
Ie
Nav 1 head 1 200degrees
Nav 1 head 2 198degrees
Nav 2 head 3 201degrees

 

[ksu_aviator]

Rik - Yes. The regulation to check a VOR does not have an exception.

Gravity Hater - Yes. The requirement is for each VOR to be checked and it may be checked against another VOR.

 

[stupidpilot]

For 135 ops to fly under Op Spec B-43/35, with a single GPS, you must have functioning redundant class I Navigation displayed in the cockpit. Normally VOR on the RMI and F/O's panel. Therefore it must be checked and logged every 40 days.

Every 40 days?

 

[Rick James]

Rik - Yes. The regulation to check a VOR does not have an exception.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft under IFR using the VOR system of radio navigation unless the VOR equipment of that aircraft --

Well, if your not using VOR's then why would you have to check them? This is the basis for the debate we're having in our department.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

just do a dual check every 30 days, we do it every couple of weeks and note it in our log. not a big deal and you are covered.

agree.

Have it on your flight/trip log paperwork and be done with it..

I do one every trip...just make it up. Takes approx 5 seconds and makes everyone happy. Have done VOR checks on glass cockpit planes for the last 10yrs and never tuned a VOR. lol.

The FAA will have us still doing them years after VORs are removed from service.

now...debating if its technically required? - I say either way its done...so who cares, go find a hobby.

 

[caseyd]

agree.

...so who cares, go find a hobby.

Now there's a man who needs a larger audience..... You can make yourself crazy with this stuff and if it's your hobby well fine. If not, yer gonna make the rest of us crazy. And that won't be pretty ;-)

 

[NCherches]

VOR checks are perfect for those 3+ hour flights where I am sick of hearing Rush Limbaugh on the ADF, I have figited with all the buttons/switches, and I am sick of climbing and decending for a smooth ride...

 

[BoilerUP]

Well, if your not using VOR's then why would you have to check them?

Because 91.171 say you have to...that's pretty much the long and the short of it. Like somebody mentioned earlier in the thread, the FMS uses VOR/DME for cross-check with its GPS position.

As far as the AIM statement about needing a backup to GPS nav being regulatory...not sure, but I'd hate to be in a position of an ALJ making that determination with my certificates on the line.

Like G200 says, it takes 5 seconds...why attempt to make something vastly more complicated than it needs to be?

Then again, you could always write the Chief Counsel and get an interpretation...THAT would be definitive.

 

[ksu_aviator]

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft under IFR using the VOR system of radio navigation unless the VOR equipment of that aircraft --

Well, if your not using VOR's then why would you have to check them? This is the basis for the debate we're having in our department.

I'm not sure where the regulation is, but the AIM says there is a regulation requiring another form of navigation appropriate to the flight in addition to a GPS.

AIM 1:1:19(d)(2)

 

[GravityHater]

How many have a log of their FMS/GPS databases updates? I am told we need a written log of all updates.

 

[LJ45]

How many have a log of their FMS/GPS databases updates? I am told we need a written log of all updates.

Our POI said yes, after he came back from a FAA school on this subject. And, he told me we could do it, even though some later guidance saying it needs to be done by maintenance. yeah, they could pop that disk in better than I can, after I went to UNS school and they went to what! give me a break! Yes, 135 log it, 91...who cares.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I do one every time I accept an aircraft whether 91, 121, or 135. Have flown glass more than anything else and have always understood it to be required per regulation.

 

[LJ45]

I do one every time I accept an aircraft whether 91, 121, or 135. Have flown glass more than anything else and have always known it to be required per regulation.

In the words of a great band named Queen..."play the game"

 

[Rick James]

Well guys/ gals, it seems that we're all in agreement. My position is that it's an easy thing to accomplish so you may as well do it. I'm up against a CP that challenges me to prove that we have to, by regulation. Frankly, I've lost my motivation to argue the point and I'll just sit back and let it go.

 

[RipCurl]

BoilerUP hit part of it: if your GPS is a TSO-c129 unit (non-WAAS/non-stand-alone RNAV), then you must have an alternate means of navigation:

(b) Aircraft using GPS navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the flight. Active monitoring of alternative navigation equipment is not required if the GPS receiver uses RAIM for integrity monitoring. Active monitoring of an alternate means of navigation is required when the RAIM capability of the GPS equipment is lost.

This only applies if this is a TSO-c129 GPS. This means a regular old GPS that can only shoot LNAV approaches. Since the VOR is required by the above paragraph, it must be tested every 30 days as per 91.171. If your GPS is a TSO-c145/c146 unit (WAAS/stand-alone RNAV), you don't need anything else and the above paragraph doesn't apply.

7. Unlike TSO-C129 avionics, which were certified as a supplement to other means of navigation, WAAS avionics are evaluated without reliance on other navigation systems. As such, installation of WAAS avionics does not require the aircraft to have other equipment appropriate to the route to be flown.

I believe the above paragraph also applies to airplanes with aircraft based augmentation systems (ABAS), where the GPS is augmented by the IRU(s). Finding out whether or not your FMS works this way is up to you.

I just found a PDF from Rockwell Collins that says the following:

The FMS-3000, FMS-4200, FMS/AMS-5000, FMS-6000, and FMS-6100, perform the normal function of stand-alone GNSS equipment when in stalled with GPS-4000().

From that, I don't think you're required to to do the VOR check, but I also don't think your POI/FSDO or the guy ramp checking you will care what I think, and you should either do the test or find out what they think.

As far as how 91.171 applies to other FMS systems like DME/DME/IRU setups, I'm just a dumb flight instructor so I have no idea. I'll let you know as soon as I'm flying behind one...

 

[2000Easyguy]

just do a dual check every 30 days, we do it every couple of weeks and note it in our log. not a big deal and you are covered.

Agreed, simple as that! ^^^