Sent home - electronic logbook

[zuka]

I was talking with a friend this weekend and he told me about a few people who had been sent home from interviews for using an electronic logbook. I think the company was expressjet. I stopped using the old fashioned logbook last year because I can do so much more with the electronic logbook, and can back it up. It didn’t make sense to enter time in two places when I can print out the electronic one.

If you were sent home for using an electronic logbook or know somebody who has, can you post details?

1. Was the person sent home solely for using an electronic logbook or for having questionable time?

2. Was the logbook printed out and were the pages signed?

3. Are there really people who are still in the dark ages and don’t acknowledge people who use electronic logbooks?

 

[pkjohnsonm]

E-logbooks

I have read about several people who have been sent home with their e-logbooks. Apparently the only reason is that the pages were not signed. That is just what I have read.

 

[xdashdriver]

I went to an XJT interview with a printed log. It was a very nice printed log, all the pages were signed and they were actually rather impressed. I also had my handwritten logs with all the various instructor signatures etc. in there for them as well but they did not want to see those. I would say the e-logbook helped more than it hurt.

Ray

 

[starcheck1]

I heard that someone showed up at the interview with their laptop and said "here is my logbook"....I belive he got a trip home a little quicker than he planned.

 

[zuka]

I heard that someone showed up at the interview with their laptop and said "here is my logbook"....I belive he got a trip home a little quicker than he planned.

That's pushing it!

 

[AviatorTx]

Bring your original logbooks also. They are looking for your original endorsements and sign offs. The actual stamps and/or signatures. Those are NOT found in E-log books.

Without your original signoffs and endorsements present and accounted for, you will be sent home from XJT.

 

[phishhman]

Bring your original logbooks also. They are looking for your original endorsements and sign offs. The actual stamps and/or signatures. Those are NOT found in E-log books.

Without your original signoffs and endorsements present and accounted for, you will be sent home from XJT.

I agree. I spoke with a few freinds that had done some interviewing here and they want the original pen-and-ink loogbooks because one could just change flight times and reprint the page, undetected.

 

[BendOverAgain?]

Bring your original logbooks also. They are looking for your original endorsements and sign offs. The actual stamps and/or signatures. Those are NOT found in E-log books.

Without your original signoffs and endorsements present and accounted for, you will be sent home from XJT.

I use airlinelogbook & logbook pro and have it printed out and bound nicely. Each page is signed and I scanned all my endorcements etc. from the original books and included those towards the back of my current logbook. I printout my log at the end of every month (5 minutes vs &%#*@ and it is more accurate than hand written/added).

I'd take my originals just in case if they were to question it though!

 

[DrEvil]

I agree. I spoke with a few freinds that had done some interviewing here and they want the original pen-and-ink loogbooks because one could just change flight times and reprint the page, undetected.

There's no difference in pencil whipping your handwritten logbook vs. your electronic logbook. That's not the issue at hand here. What we don't know are the facts of the matter, and as it sounds, they took in a laptop computer, or tablet PC and said "here's my logbook" instead of printed pages, with signatures, endorsements, etc. I've actually heard quite a few success stories of people taking electronic logbooks in to interviews and wow'ing the interviewers with their obvious efforts showing their desire for the job. The electronic logbook shows your organization skills, efforts in accurate data, and compliance with regulations/currencies. There is no difference in a printed out e-log and a handwritten logbook as long as the pages are signed, which is a requirement for BOTH. Take a handwritten logbook to an interview without the signature "true and correct..." signed. Same thing...C YA!!!

So I wouldn't come away here with any bias of either, they are both the same, as long as they are official and documented properly. My $.02!

 

[zuka]

There is no difference in a printed out e-log and a handwritten logbook as long as the pages are signed, which is a requirement for BOTH.

Signing the bottom of logbook pages must be just an old ritual, because I can’t find anything about a signature in 61.51 which describes requirements for pilot logbooks. It says you need a signature from an instructor for flight and ground training received, but when you fly solo that’s a different matter.



But after saying that, I wouldn’t show up at an interview without signing the pages J



I haven’t been keeping a pen and paper logbook for about a year now, well I do for flight and ground training received, but when flying solo or instructing I just use the computer and print it out (and I sign it now).



It’s true you could change something and reprint it, but you can change a pen and paper logbook too. I think that’s why some people write in pencil.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I don't think ExpressJet can be compared with other regionals when it comes to logbooks and flight times. They are quite obviously more strict with these issues. Most likely in an interview with any regional out there except XJT you'll be fine with printed pages from an e-logbook...as long as its signed, neat, and organized.

 

[EMB145XR]

I've been in training at Express for the last couple weeks and we're being told that e-logbooks are fine so long as they are notarized prior to the interview. Bringing in your old logbooks are helpful, also.

 

[Lear70]

NOTARIZED??!!

This thread should be transferred to the YGBSM section... what the hell good does having your pages notarized do? Verify that you're not signing your buddy's electronic logbook printout? There sure is a lot of that going on that needs to stop... *snicker*

I've been keeping the red books for about 5 years now, never had a problem at any interview. The only way I can see an electronic version being better is if you use a PDA and transfer it directly into your laptop or home computer's electronic log, thereby eliminating the need to copy your times twice - otherwise it takes the same amount of time to do and don't tell me it's because "the computer adds more accurately"; if you really have that hard of a time adding your flight times daily, maybe you should seek a career in the flower industry.

 

[EMB145XR]

Simmer down, chief. I'm only repeating what I was told by the interviewers. They told stories of getting only the last pages out of logbooks (a photocopy at that), pages that aren't tallied, folks that come in with just an armload of red books, and all sorts of other stuff. Have a little professional pride, already.

Yeah, we've all heard the stories about our hiring department and I'll generally agree that they aren't the most friendly. They don't hide the fact that over 70% of the applicants who make it to the interview do not get hired. Frankly, with minimums of 600 TT and 100ME, I'm okay with that.

Flame away.

 

[AviatorTx]

They don't hide the fact that over 70% of the applicants who make it to the interview do not get hired. Frankly, with minimums of 600 TT and 100ME, I'm okay with that.

Well said!

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

I agree. I spoke with a few freinds that had done some interviewing here and they want the original pen-and-ink loogbooks because one could just change flight times and reprint the page, undetected.

What?? Do you have some sort of special "detector" watching you when you fill in your paper logbook? If an interviewer really told you this he is a moron.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I suppose that if the entries are written in ink, which most folks with written logs use, it would be difficult for one to make changes to that later without it being fairly obvious. On the other hand, an e-logbook wouldn't be so difficult to change. I have nothing against e-logbooks, I own one myself. Even so, I keep a written log as well just in case I need it. It takes a little extra time to log each day's flights in both places, but its worth it for the peace of mind.

 

[rstev1955]

Hired with spreadsheet logbook

I was hired by both Eagle and XJET with an excel spreadsheet logbook, printed and each page signed. Original endorsements were scanned and pasted into the sheets and are as good as the originals. If it meets the requirements and also looks good....it is a plus not a minus. Even Dawn Daniel was impressed.

 

[Rottweiller]

Been using a electronic log since 1994 and had no problems with the couple of interviews I attended with it. The log is printed out and in a smart binder. Each page is signed and also has a print date stamp on it so you could easily see if it has been rigged. Hell I haven't even made a written log book entry for over 10 years and went to a PDA from the "red book" 4 years ago and sync it straight up with my PC.

To be nit picky, the only log entries you really need to have is to show currency on the type of aircraft being flown, nothing more is required.

I fail to see how a written logbook is less easy to "doctor" than an electronic one. Anyone with to much time on their hands can pencil fly to their hearts content.

 

[hbrow15]

I suppose that if the entries are written in ink, which most folks with written logs use, it would be difficult for one to make changes to that later without it being fairly obvious.

Why would a guy that was pencil whipping his logbook change an entry versus just adding an entry no way to detect that.

 

[zuka]

changing paper

I saw a student pilot once training for his commercial and had some things in his logbook that were questionable. He just brought a new logbook and rewrote all the entries. It's easy to do. He had about 250 hours so it wasn't that many pages to redo. I'm not sure how he handled the instructor endoresments, perhaps he got his instructor to resign a few pages. It's more work, but you can still change it.

 

[LJDRVR]

Folks,

I think the watchwords here are; attention to detail. I don't think Express Jet or anyone else for that matter cares WHAT form your logbooks are in as long as they are truthful, neat, legible and complete. I have a different 2" binder for every year starting in 1998. These are divided into months, with a green logbook total page with signature for each month. Underneath the totals page are copies of each aircraft logsheet from every trip I flew. It's all there, where we went, who signed for the airplane, write-ups, all of it. While I got some grief and ribbing over the size of my logbooks, (They filled one of those Simuflite tote bags) I was still offered the job, because they were neat, truthful, legible and complete.

 

[upndsky]

I've used an Excel spreadsheet as an electronic logbook for several years now. Every few months or so, when I have an afternoon with nothing to do, I'll transcribe all the entries into one of those big professional paper logbooks, which also contain all my check-offs and endorsements.

When I interviewed at XJT, they gave me grief because for about two year's worth of entries, I never totalled the times on the bottom of each page (I did sign the pages, though). I never felt it necessary to do that since I had a running total on my spreadsheet. I did put the totals on the last page so they could tell how much time I had. When they questioned me why my logbook was "incomplete" I told them about the spreadsheet. One of the interviewers asked if I had the spreadsheet with me. I didn't but offered to email it to him, at which he chuckled and said "that's alright."

Well, as you can tell by my profile, I got the job.

I will say that most of my time came from a well-established Part 135 check hauler and I don't think they doubted my time or my experience, which was reflected in the way they asked me questions vs. guys with mostly Part 91 backgrounds.

They just want to be able to quickly and easily analyze your time, which means giving it to them on paper. Whether it is in a paper logbook or clean printouts from an electronic logbook shouldn't matter.

 

[Lord_Baltimore]

Mesa doesn't accept computerized logbooks

Traveled to Phoenix to interview with Mesa last week. Got sent home because they would only accept original, handwritten logbooks, not the Excel spreadsheet I've used as a log for the last three years. They actually want me to copy every entry over by hand, then come back to complete the interview.

This, of course, transpired only *after* they collected their $50 "application fee".

 

[rstev1955]

Traveled to Phoenix to interview with Mesa last week. Got sent home because they would only accept original, handwritten logbooks, not the Excel spreadsheet I've used as a log for the last three years. They actually want me to copy every entry over by hand, then come back to complete the interview.

This, of course, transpired only *after* they collected their $50 "application fee".

Just having a computerized logbook is rarely good enough. Did you have the entire logbook printed out and each page signed? If you did they should not have sent you home. If not it does not meet the minimum requirements of most airlines.

 

[xdashdriver]

Traveled to Phoenix to interview with Mesa last week. Got sent home because they would only accept original, handwritten logbooks, not the Excel spreadsheet I've used as a log for the last three years. They actually want me to copy every entry over by hand, then come back to complete the interview.

This, of course, transpired only *after* they collected their $50 "application fee".

Well when I interviewed at Mesa in February I took my computer-printed logbook to the interview along with my original handwritten logs with the endorsements in them (the handwritten logs were not up-to-date). As with the other 2 airlines I interviewed at, the logbooks were a hit. Definitely scored points on that one. No one even wanted to see the handwritten logs.

Ray

 

[propjockey]

The only way I can see an electronic version being better is if you use a PDA and transfer it directly into your laptop or home computer's electronic log, thereby eliminating the need to copy your times twice.

At SkyWest, we are able to download our times directly from the company intranet to personal computer and/or PDA. It's very slick. All I have to keep track of is landings and IMC (I just write these down on the paper printout of my schedule that I carry with me, and enter them after I download the week's flying). It takes care of the rest. Updating my logbook once a week takes a couple minutes.

The electronic logbooks make it all worthwhile if you ever have to fill out an 8710 or another airline application. It can tell you how much night-multi-turbine-PIC-IMC-xcountry you have in seconds vs. possibly a very long time adding by hand.

 

[rcbullock]

So, if you don't sign your handwritten logbook is that a big deal? I mean, I wrote it all in, what's the point of signing each page in addition? Am I lying if I didn't sign it or something?

 

[Best on a Camel]

What would you guys say is the best e-logbook out there?

BOAC

 

[Bandit60]

I have read about several people who have been sent home with their e-logbooks. Apparently the only reason is that the pages were not signed. That is just what I have read.

Show me anywhere in the FAR's that it says you have to sign your logbook. I had this come up years ago at a FISDO and they could not show me where you have to sign anything.