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Seneca Vs. Duchess

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BradG

Poor Flight Instructor
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Posts
142
Im supposed to pick up this Seneca in South Carolina next week, and ive never flown one. Im supposed to go around the pattern a few times with a guy there, but anybody got any tips for flyin one? I gotta bring it from SC to Kansas City. ALl ive ever flown is a Duchess. How much different does it fly? Its either a 1 or a 2, not sure yet

Thanks
 
I only have a few hours in the Seneca and most of my time is in Duchesses as well, but here are my thoughts:

It's an easy transition. Just learn the new V speeds and for the most part you're all set. You can feel the added power of the Seneca in the takeoff in climb, but other than that it's close enough the same to not be a shock. The biggest problem I had with the transition is learning the new postions of some of the controls, as well as getting a feel for the landing "picture" since the Seneca sits so much lower than the Duchess. You feel like you're going to drive the plane into the runway the first few times you land.

The controls on the Seneca seemed a bit sloppier, but I was flying a crappy Seneca I at the time, so maybe it was just that particular plane.

Anyway, I wouldn't sweat it too much. It's not a huge jump.
 
Seneca

I'll agree with big D, the seneca feels pretty sloppy. I've only flown a seneca a couple of times and it reminded me of a heavy lance. If your proficient in the twin I don't think you'll have any problems. I split some time in the seneca with a buddy who was getting ready for a 135 checkride. I watched him shoot approaches for an hour then we swithched seats and i did the same. I felt a little behind the plane beacause i was constantly searching for stuff, however i did feel safe.

supsup
 
DoinTime said:
Yes...they both are critical.

No the critical engine is the one that is still turning. If it quits it is going to take longer to get to the crash site.
 
Be nice to the Turbo-Charged engines on the Seneca. If you've never flown turbo-charged engines before, get a little dual on them. They are very temperature sensative, and you don't want to pull back the throttles too quickly or else you may shock-cool the motors.

JetPilot500
 
I instructed in the Seneca, and for the most part, I agree.

Although I wouldn't choose the word "sloppy", there is a marked "heaviness" in the controls, which I liken to a larger Piper like the Chieftan (Navajo). As mentioned above, if it is a Seneca II, figure out a way to get those power settings that you will be shown FIRMLY in your head. Maybe write down the various flight profiles. Like the Navajo, it will take some practice.

Use the checklist. Get ALL of the fuel drains, incliding the crossflow drains just inside the bottom edge of the fuselage, about eight inches from the right wing's inside flap hinge. After startup, put the fuel valves to crossfeed for the taxi, so you know they work, and before you get to the runup area, put them back to normal. They are functioning properly if you get through the entire runup procedure without a problem. At that point, you have practically eliminated a fuel valve problem. DO check density altitude, as it will dictate your single engine performance. Make certain that performance is adequate for conditions. Calculate the accelerate/stop distance. If you have to, sit in the airplane for a while to learn where everything is.

Oh. One of our pilots at my old school discovered how easy it is to check the alternators one at a time, and then inadvertantly leave them both "off". Make sure you have an upscale reading on both meters.

If you turn on the "nav" lights, you may not see the "three green" gear lights at all, since they get "dimmed" automatically. If you think you have a gear problem, check those nav lights FIRST.

That's all I can think of for now.
 
JetPilot500 said:
Be nice to the Turbo-Charged engines on the Seneca. If you've never flown turbo-charged engines before, get a little dual on them. They are very temperature sensative, and you don't want to pull back the throttles too quickly or else you may shock-cool the motors.

JetPilot500

I don't think the Seneca I is turbo-charged. Seneca II is. Either way they handle similar to Arrows/Lances/Saratogas just with 2 eng.
 
It's a lot more ponderous than a Dutchess, it doesnt have the nice crisp Beechcraft control feel. It's no harder to fly though,just not as much fun IMHO.
 
>>"If you turn on the "nav" lights, you may not see the "three green" gear lights at all, since they get "dimmed" automatically. If you think you have a gear problem, check those nav lights FIRST."<<

Have to laugh at that one! I did my multi training in a Seminole and that was a trick my instructor pulled a couple of times on approach! It came up again last year when I was right seat in another Seminole. The pilot flying thought we had gear problems. I chuckled as I told him to check the nav lights. Sure enough, "gear" problem solved.


I also thought that not all Senecas were turbocharged. They definitely feel more like the Navajo in nose-heaviness. Also, I think all the Senecas are CR same as the Duchess.

Between the tips from BigD and Timebuilder you should be fine. As an option, you might check with Jack O'Neil, and see if he's free to go along. You'll learn a ton!

cj
 
gear lights

Not a seneca comment, but you can do the same thing with the dimmer switch in an Arrow, which my instructor did to me turning final. He asked me just short of the numbers if I had checked gear down again, and when I looked down--big panic sets in...I went around and got it when he started laughing as he turned the lights back up on crosswind. Great learning experience I guess--I always chant the "three in the green" over the numbers now...

He related a story years ago in an Arrow I or II when he and the owner were doing touch and gos and heard a big "thump" when they got into ground effect. They elected to go around and realized it was the auto-extend system saving their ass... Too bad that system has been sued out of existence. I really like it on the II because you can lock it out if you want for short fields.
 
I instructed in Seneca 1s. I would like to add that they are fairly nose heavy in the flare. Just something to remember!
 
It's a little nose heavy, especially if you aren't used to the feel of the airplane. For landing, I would (field length permitting) leave just a little throttle in for the flare, and then take out that small bit of remaining throttle right before touchdown.

When you pull the power all the way to idle, you get a lot of "flat plate drag" from the props, which are now being spun by the relative wind. Keeping that little bit of throttle helps you keep a good landing attitude into the flare, and then you are set up for a nice "greaser".

Oh, and stay above Vmc, okay? We can still see the spot in the neighbor's backyard near RDG where a guy nosed-in a Navajo a couple of years ago. Inverted.
 
The nav lights are GOOD advice. My school had both a seneca and dutchess. I liked the duchess best for training because of the unfeathering accumulators. The seneca doesn't have them and led to more than one single engine landings. The seneca was a heavy feeling airplane though. Sloppy at slow speeds yes but very stable at cruise and in turbulence. One other thing, If I had to choose between a duchess and seneca in ice (well i'd really take neither) I'd have to go with the seneca. Granted its not a good position to be in but that thing can hold a load of ice.

On the landing for the seneca, try trimming it so that you ned to hold forward pressure on final, that way in the flare its not as nose heavy. If you dont it can sometimes take two hands to flare it out. Also the controll collum will pull out and then slightly UP. It can be very nose heavy without baggage or people in the back.

Good luck and have fun. Write back with any more questions.
 
mckpickle said:


On the landing for the seneca, try trimming it so that you ned to hold forward pressure on final, that way in the flare its not as nose heavy. If you dont it can sometimes take two hands to flare it out. Also the controll collum will pull out and then slightly UP. It can be very nose heavy without baggage or people in the back.

Good luck and have fun. Write back with any more questions.

Yeah the Seneca II that I flew, with one person up front, full fuel, and nothing in the back, would be out of limits forward with CG.
 
414flyer,

Quit talking trash you've never even seen a seneca let alone been the pilot of one.
 
Critical Engine

A critical engine is the engine that takes you to the scene of the accident.:cool:
 
If its a seneca 1, I wouldn't land with more than 1 notch of flaps with no one in the back. Very easy to hit the nose gear 1st. I flew a seneca 1 with aftermarket Ray-Jay turbochargers. A marked improvemant over the normally aspirated model (especially out in Denver, where I flew it).:cool:
 
Skyking-

I just retrim a little after adding the full flaps. We had two examples of the Seneca 1, and I never hit a nosewheel. Never had a CG problem either.

Your results may not be typical, void where prohibited by law, slippery when wet, this coffee is hot.
 
ERAU Duchess

Does anyone know if Embry-Riddle is selling their line of Duchess's. I know they've replaced them with the Seminole.
 
Timebuilder...

I had tried that in the past but I found that I got softer landings with only 1 notch. If it ain't broke...

Thanx anyway...

Cheers,
SKyking:D
 

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