Seating in the actual...

[AV80R]

... Call the TSA and ask...

Yeah, you're right - call TSA and get them to scew something else up...then we'll have to wait for several years before CASS 2 is up and running again...

uke:TSA

 

[clr4theapch]

121.547 Admin to Flt Deck

It is my understanding that it is TSA policy that offline pilots, dispatchers, etc can only ride up front if there are no seats available in the back. Many companies have recently came out with very clear and in some cases harsh language specifying this, which I suppose you could argue may just be company policy. Any jumpseat coordinators out there? Call the TSA and ask. This is one thing we all need to be 100% on the same page with. If we find the rule undesireable then we can work to change the rule, but we don't have the authority to allow anyone onto the flight deck we want to in the meantime, only to disallow someone.

Thanks, I see your reference in 121.547 (4)(c)...I guess I dont see what the point of CASS is then... it does stand for Cockpit Access Security System doesn't it?

Rules like you mentioned sound more like the TSA making room on the flight deck for there purposes and not the flight crews or dispatchers, it would be a good thing for the coordinators to put there heads together on this matter...We all understand the priority system and pecking order, the FAR is pretty clear who can ride with priority over another, however the word "dispatcher" is now missing in FAR 121.547, it only references authorized persons in Para (4)(b) and Para(5)....

Of course the PIC has final authority in all matters, which is another reason its very important to the dispatchers that we are authorized in each carriers Manuals that have recip agreements.. thanks once again for the attention.. as always the dispatchers are behind you all the way...

 

[WalterSobchak]

About half the time on NWA the Captain says "oh, I don't think dispatcher can jumpseat..." and my wife has to respond with a "yes, it's in the FOM, look at the page after the pilot jumpseats." and they are "wow - I've been a Captain for xx years and never knew that".

Bingo...and the reason I keep the numbers to the dispatch office of each airline I jump on regularly in my cell. Never to override the captain...but just to confirm that the agreement exists...and to combat gate agents when they try to deny us the privelege in desperate moments of trying to get home/to work.

Of course the PIC has final authority in all matters, which is another reason its very important to the dispatchers that we are authorized in each carriers Manuals that have recip agreements.. thanks once again for the attention.. as always the dispatchers are behind you all the way...

As I type this, I'm looking at a copy of the Letter of Agreement between my airline and Virgin America. While I know we dispatchers are an afterthought in the grand scheme of jumpseating, the wording of this thing could not be more confusing (nor could it be more more grammatically incorrect).

The LOA states that the two airlines "agree to reciprocal ACM priveleges for FAA certified Flightdeck Crewmembers and Dispatchers". Yet, at the end of the letter it states "CASS approved airline pilots shall be permitted to occupy the Flightdeck Jumpseat".

Maybe I'm way wrong here, but I've always understood ACM to mean "actual OK". Otherwise it is usually referred to "jumpseat agreement". We called a former coworker that left us for VA and he swears that we are good to go in the actual if no other seats are open and that they have been told it was kosher for them to ride our actuals.

The horrendous wording of these agreements does not help us at all. It is to the point that the only two sure bets are my company's metal and Southwest. AirTran has been good to me as well, but only because I still know their policies better than most of their CS agents (I used to be one of them).

All the rest are a huge hassle to get past the gate agent...and then getting past the captain...then the debate of whether the actual is OK...and then...

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm happy to have whatever agreements we can get...I just wish things were a bit easier.

 

[clr4theapch]

J/S Recip agreements Inclusive of DX'ers

I fully support what Waltersobchek wrote.. I hope we are not writting to deaf ears.... Personally, I think most of this confusion could be cleared up with the folks that write the recip agreements... simple.. just write about us like you do for your pilots... we all understand and have experienced the priority system...
Actual example: I am riding on company A..already approved by the captain, sitting in the J/S buckled in.. a last minute Pilot from company A shows up on the flight deck to ask for a ride.. (the back is full) captain looks at me and says.. "sorry" maybe next time.. off I go.. thanking him for the try..

Its a pilots priority.. no problem here.. just remember some of us have to commute just like you do and it is usually not by choice in the short term...

Please clear up any confusing or wording that is not absolutely clear about a dispatchers ability to ride in the "ACTUAL" jumpseat.. with your company manuals.. and then send a memo of instruction to the company CSA managment and to the gate agents.

I don't know about the other dispatchers here, but By the time I get worked over by the TSA security and have run 3 miles of concourses competing with pilots and other higher priorities to find a possible flight to work, the hardest thing to deal with at this point is being nice to a hard A$$ gate agent that is over-extending their power based on bad or inaccurate information and will not entertain listening to you..

If I might add, I over heard a gate agent telling one dispatcher that "Only Uniformed" crew members can enter the cockpit.. please address this issue as well.. we don't have uniforms.. not yet... but if that helps, I would gladly consider adopting a jumpseat uniform for appearances... I always dress with shirt and tie when I need a ride..

Thanks for reading, its up to each of you pilots to help us out with your company and the language used..
Once we are all in the same page, then we can successfully challenge any TSA rules with sound reasoning and unity about the subject...

 

[WalterSobchak]

Sorry for the hijack SSDD...but this is a topic near and dear to our cold, black, dispatcher hearts...and I think the majors forums is a good place to discuss it...since it is the majors we seem to have the most issues with.

...I hope we are not writting to deaf ears...

Well, we are posting on FI.com...the most deaf of deaf ears. The key is to get with your jumpseat coordinator and discuss how these things are written. A few calls to our colleagues at each dispatch office to clear things up and getting a copy of the page in their FOM or the letter of agreement helps.

If I might add, I over heard a gate agent telling one dispatcher that "Only Uniformed" crew members can enter the cockpit.. please address this issue as well.. we don't have uniforms.. not yet... but if that helps, I would gladly consider adopting a jumpseat uniform for appearances... I always dress with shirt and tie when I need a ride..

I've had heck with some agents who have no clue that dispatchers are allowed the actual. My company has an agreement with X airlines...I used to work in the same terminal as this airline...and know many of their gate agents. Even knowing me...and knowing that I would never BS her...a gate agent for this airline tried to deny me the actual when I offered to take it in order to not split up a family of three that was non-revving because she "had never heard of a dispatcher jumpseating". The woman has been with that airline for 20+ years. Luckily the captain was standing at the gate (crew swap) and told her she was wrong.

I'm with you...I never take it for granted and I completely respect the protocol. But getting left behind when everything is misinterpreted because someone didn't word the agreement properly...sucks.

 

[SSDD]

Huh? That's the first I've heard. The whole point of CASS is so you can ride upfront. Now if you or the pilots upfront would prefer for you to ride in the back (crowded cockpit, etc) then the choice should be yours if there are seats in the back...

Easy there cowboy!

The reason I'm asking is that I've seen it both ways. Some people have never heard of this, yet some companies, like mine, have sent various memos about it. All I'm asking is, what does your company require?

 

[AV80R]

Easy there cowboy!

The reason I'm asking is that I've seen it both ways. Some people have never heard of this, yet some companies, like mine, have sent various memos about it. All I'm asking is, what does your company require?

Ok, I'm taking my cowboy hat off.

At my company you can only ride upfront unless you'd like to share your 'seat' with a big brown box.

I know this is confusing and it should be clarified for sure, I just doubt TSA is the agency we should be directing our questions to. Their primary objective is to catch PUIs or pilots under influence nowadays...