Seating in the actual...

[SSDD]

When we first went CASS, one of the stipulations was that if there was a passenger seat available, ANY(not check airman)jumpseater would have to ride in back.

I've been jumpseating offline quite a bit lately, and a few times I've been given the option to sit in the actual, or in the cabin.

So my question is: Is the requirement to sit in back universal, or is it just our company?

Thanks

 

[FatesPawn]

Just your company.... perhaps others too... but it's not a regulation.

 

[SSDD]

Thanks,

I know its not an FAR, but now days TSA's regs apply just as well.

 

[glasspilot1]

When we first went CASS, one of the stipulations was that if there was a passenger seat available, ANY(not check airman)jumpseater would have to ride in back.

It's been my experience that, even with a policy of sitting in the cabin before the cockpit, if it's very full and you'd be stuck in the middle seat between 2 fat lady's, the Capt will very often offer the jumpseat. Heck, they usually welcome the company up front!

 

[clr4theapch]

Q. When pilots are not taking the "Actual" are the crews still welcoming dispatchers?? It's been awhile since I have had to commute.. We are CASS but its always been a little shaky for dispatchers to off line J/S and the writtings of late seem to just ignor us completely.. I for one have always appreciated the opportunity to ride up front and never fail to thank the crews for the ride..

 

[rickair7777]

Q. When pilots are not taking the "Actual" are the crews still welcoming dispatchers?? It's been awhile since I have had to commute.. We are CASS but its always been a little shaky for dispatchers to off line J/S and the writtings of late seem to just ignor us completely.. I for one have always appreciated the opportunity to ride up front and never fail to thank the crews for the ride..

The companies I have worked for did not allow offline dispatchers to J/S (you can always non-rev as an airline employee).

 

[clr4theapch]

Offline Dispatchers

Ya see, thats what I am talking about.. Listen, no disrespect here, but the dispatchers that have been around a few years or more know and respect that the Flight deck Jump seat is a negociated pilot benefit from way back.. the Prevledge was extended to dispatchers of all carriers just as the pilots..just a lesser priority, which is understandable, We still have to do 5 hours of annual observations for our own carrier but since we are airmen and in many cases pilots as well, you the pilots voted to allow us up front as well. Thanks...

In years of old, many DX commuted to work and home as do the pilots, allot still do but even before 911 it was getting tougher to get on the flight deck as loads increased.. now in the TSA Era, and much higher loads, smaller jets, etc.. open seats for any use are at a all time premium, leaving the flight deck as the only option to get to work or home for many.. Personally I fear my new assignment is looking this way..

I dont know who you worked for that did not allow offlines, back in the day I worked for a DCI carrier and got most of my rides home on Airtran's flight decks.. , And we all know how much Delta and Airtran love each other.. Buy the way, thanks to all the FL guys and Gals that provided a lift..

My goal here is not to start an arguement, I was just hoping to provide some enlightenment as to the continuing plight that many dispatchers are facing these days, its only getting worse. I know I can speak for the dispatchers around the country...we would really appreciate it if in your communications about the jumpseat agreements at your airline if you would be inclined to remember your bretheren on the ground.. that really need a hand getting around once in a while...

Thanks in advance from all of us, I'll bring some goodies next time for the crew..

 

[IronCityBlue]

It is my understanding that it is TSA policy that offline pilots, dispatchers, etc can only ride up front if there are no seats available in the back. Many companies have recently came out with very clear and in some cases harsh language specifying this, which I suppose you could argue may just be company policy. Any jumpseat coordinators out there? Call the TSA and ask. This is one thing we all need to be 100% on the same page with. If we find the rule undesireable then we can work to change the rule, but we don't have the authority to allow anyone onto the flight deck we want to in the meantime, only to disallow someone.

 

[iaflyer]

Ya see, thats what I am talking about.. Listen, no disrespect here, but the dispatchers that have been around a few years or more know and respect that the Flight deck Jump seat is a negotiated pilot benefit from way back

My wife has the same thing happen to her - dispatchers usually have jumpseat privileges like everyone else but not many people know about it. About half the time on NWA the Captain says "oh, I don't think dispatcher can jumpseat..." and my wife has to respond with a "yes, it's in the FOM, look at the page after the pilot jumpseats." and they are "wow - I've been a Captain for xx years and never knew that".

 

[AV80R]

...So my question is: Is the requirement to sit in back universal, or is it just our company?

Thanks

Huh? That's the first I've heard. The whole point of CASS is so you can ride upfront. Now if you or the pilots upfront would prefer for you to ride in the back (crowded cockpit, etc) then the choice should be yours if there are seats in the back...

 

[AV80R]

... Call the TSA and ask...

Yeah, you're right - call TSA and get them to scew something else up...then we'll have to wait for several years before CASS 2 is up and running again...

uke:TSA

 

[clr4theapch]

121.547 Admin to Flt Deck

It is my understanding that it is TSA policy that offline pilots, dispatchers, etc can only ride up front if there are no seats available in the back. Many companies have recently came out with very clear and in some cases harsh language specifying this, which I suppose you could argue may just be company policy. Any jumpseat coordinators out there? Call the TSA and ask. This is one thing we all need to be 100% on the same page with. If we find the rule undesireable then we can work to change the rule, but we don't have the authority to allow anyone onto the flight deck we want to in the meantime, only to disallow someone.

Thanks, I see your reference in 121.547 (4)(c)...I guess I dont see what the point of CASS is then... it does stand for Cockpit Access Security System doesn't it?

Rules like you mentioned sound more like the TSA making room on the flight deck for there purposes and not the flight crews or dispatchers, it would be a good thing for the coordinators to put there heads together on this matter...We all understand the priority system and pecking order, the FAR is pretty clear who can ride with priority over another, however the word "dispatcher" is now missing in FAR 121.547, it only references authorized persons in Para (4)(b) and Para(5)....

Of course the PIC has final authority in all matters, which is another reason its very important to the dispatchers that we are authorized in each carriers Manuals that have recip agreements.. thanks once again for the attention.. as always the dispatchers are behind you all the way...

 

[WalterSobchak]

About half the time on NWA the Captain says "oh, I don't think dispatcher can jumpseat..." and my wife has to respond with a "yes, it's in the FOM, look at the page after the pilot jumpseats." and they are "wow - I've been a Captain for xx years and never knew that".

Bingo...and the reason I keep the numbers to the dispatch office of each airline I jump on regularly in my cell. Never to override the captain...but just to confirm that the agreement exists...and to combat gate agents when they try to deny us the privelege in desperate moments of trying to get home/to work.

Of course the PIC has final authority in all matters, which is another reason its very important to the dispatchers that we are authorized in each carriers Manuals that have recip agreements.. thanks once again for the attention.. as always the dispatchers are behind you all the way...

As I type this, I'm looking at a copy of the Letter of Agreement between my airline and Virgin America. While I know we dispatchers are an afterthought in the grand scheme of jumpseating, the wording of this thing could not be more confusing (nor could it be more more grammatically incorrect).

The LOA states that the two airlines "agree to reciprocal ACM priveleges for FAA certified Flightdeck Crewmembers and Dispatchers". Yet, at the end of the letter it states "CASS approved airline pilots shall be permitted to occupy the Flightdeck Jumpseat".

Maybe I'm way wrong here, but I've always understood ACM to mean "actual OK". Otherwise it is usually referred to "jumpseat agreement". We called a former coworker that left us for VA and he swears that we are good to go in the actual if no other seats are open and that they have been told it was kosher for them to ride our actuals.

The horrendous wording of these agreements does not help us at all. It is to the point that the only two sure bets are my company's metal and Southwest. AirTran has been good to me as well, but only because I still know their policies better than most of their CS agents (I used to be one of them).

All the rest are a huge hassle to get past the gate agent...and then getting past the captain...then the debate of whether the actual is OK...and then...

Don't get me wrong, though. I'm happy to have whatever agreements we can get...I just wish things were a bit easier.

 

[clr4theapch]

J/S Recip agreements Inclusive of DX'ers

I fully support what Waltersobchek wrote.. I hope we are not writting to deaf ears.... Personally, I think most of this confusion could be cleared up with the folks that write the recip agreements... simple.. just write about us like you do for your pilots... we all understand and have experienced the priority system...
Actual example: I am riding on company A..already approved by the captain, sitting in the J/S buckled in.. a last minute Pilot from company A shows up on the flight deck to ask for a ride.. (the back is full) captain looks at me and says.. "sorry" maybe next time.. off I go.. thanking him for the try..

Its a pilots priority.. no problem here.. just remember some of us have to commute just like you do and it is usually not by choice in the short term...

Please clear up any confusing or wording that is not absolutely clear about a dispatchers ability to ride in the "ACTUAL" jumpseat.. with your company manuals.. and then send a memo of instruction to the company CSA managment and to the gate agents.

I don't know about the other dispatchers here, but By the time I get worked over by the TSA security and have run 3 miles of concourses competing with pilots and other higher priorities to find a possible flight to work, the hardest thing to deal with at this point is being nice to a hard A$$ gate agent that is over-extending their power based on bad or inaccurate information and will not entertain listening to you..

If I might add, I over heard a gate agent telling one dispatcher that "Only Uniformed" crew members can enter the cockpit.. please address this issue as well.. we don't have uniforms.. not yet... but if that helps, I would gladly consider adopting a jumpseat uniform for appearances... I always dress with shirt and tie when I need a ride..

Thanks for reading, its up to each of you pilots to help us out with your company and the language used..
Once we are all in the same page, then we can successfully challenge any TSA rules with sound reasoning and unity about the subject...

 

[WalterSobchak]

Sorry for the hijack SSDD...but this is a topic near and dear to our cold, black, dispatcher hearts...and I think the majors forums is a good place to discuss it...since it is the majors we seem to have the most issues with.

...I hope we are not writting to deaf ears...

Well, we are posting on FI.com...the most deaf of deaf ears. The key is to get with your jumpseat coordinator and discuss how these things are written. A few calls to our colleagues at each dispatch office to clear things up and getting a copy of the page in their FOM or the letter of agreement helps.

If I might add, I over heard a gate agent telling one dispatcher that "Only Uniformed" crew members can enter the cockpit.. please address this issue as well.. we don't have uniforms.. not yet... but if that helps, I would gladly consider adopting a jumpseat uniform for appearances... I always dress with shirt and tie when I need a ride..

I've had heck with some agents who have no clue that dispatchers are allowed the actual. My company has an agreement with X airlines...I used to work in the same terminal as this airline...and know many of their gate agents. Even knowing me...and knowing that I would never BS her...a gate agent for this airline tried to deny me the actual when I offered to take it in order to not split up a family of three that was non-revving because she "had never heard of a dispatcher jumpseating". The woman has been with that airline for 20+ years. Luckily the captain was standing at the gate (crew swap) and told her she was wrong.

I'm with you...I never take it for granted and I completely respect the protocol. But getting left behind when everything is misinterpreted because someone didn't word the agreement properly...sucks.

 

[SSDD]

Huh? That's the first I've heard. The whole point of CASS is so you can ride upfront. Now if you or the pilots upfront would prefer for you to ride in the back (crowded cockpit, etc) then the choice should be yours if there are seats in the back...

Easy there cowboy!

The reason I'm asking is that I've seen it both ways. Some people have never heard of this, yet some companies, like mine, have sent various memos about it. All I'm asking is, what does your company require?

 

[AV80R]

Easy there cowboy!

The reason I'm asking is that I've seen it both ways. Some people have never heard of this, yet some companies, like mine, have sent various memos about it. All I'm asking is, what does your company require?

Ok, I'm taking my cowboy hat off.

At my company you can only ride upfront unless you'd like to share your 'seat' with a big brown box.

I know this is confusing and it should be clarified for sure, I just doubt TSA is the agency we should be directing our questions to. Their primary objective is to catch PUIs or pilots under influence nowadays...