Seat swapping????

[cvoav8r]

Is there a consensus on seat swapping when both guys are typed, but one guy is designated PIC for all 135 purposes. Some places do some don't, do most of you seat swap??

 

[jergar999]

We seat swap. Started out in the right seat, and now I fly the 91 legs from the left seat, and do my checkrides from the left as well. Now, it's only a matter of someone quitting or dying...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Its pretty normal in larger operations as 99% of the time both are qualified typed "Captains" - but rest assured not all are "PIC's". Its not as simple as being "desiganted PIC for 135 purposes".

Captain-vs-PIC -- there is a signifigant difference.

But as far as seat swapping? sure - if the SIC is a qualified guy who you can trust with the steering, etc...but there are always a few occasions when the PIC may want to change up the leg order with a weaker or newer guy/gal to fly a very low vis approach, a strong x-wind at a small runway, icy runway etc...

because rest assured the first questions of why the aircraft went off the runways are going to be asked to the PIC (I dont care what seat he was in)...and the right answer IS NOT "well, the SIC was flying"..

Some also call this "Co-Captains" -- which is a bull$hit way of not offending a typed guy who might not yet be a PIC, but it satisfies the ever-fragile pilot ego.

 

[fatburger]

That's your opinion of course. Co-Captain can also be used in operations that have all highly experience pilots. Some flight departments have very high minimums to even get your foot in the door. Flights departments don't care about pilot ego. You are what you are.

-fatburger-

 

[DC3Flyer]

In our flight department whoever flies is in the left seat. Nobody flies from the right seat.

 

[400A]

seat swap

We seat swap on all legs, we are all FAR 135 checked as PIC's. As previously mentioned though, the one named PIC on the release is responsible.

 

[sydeseet]

We too seat-swap on most flights. A SIC new to the aircraft must fly his/her first 100 hours from the right seat and cannot fly "live legs" at all until he/she has 50 hours in type. After 100 hours a judgement is made by the CP based on Captain's input and said pilot is then granted official permission (which includes a cloak and paddle ceremony, but that's a different story altogether) to fly from the left seat when it is deemed appropriate by the PIC. This policy is for both 135 and 91 at our company and the FSDO has allowed if for over a decade.

I personally don't have a problem with the idea or our policy as long as it is understood by everyone that the Captain is the Captain regardless of geographic location in the aircraft. As I said we've been doing it this way for quite a while without any problems.

 

[7B2]

In our company (part 135); the one designated PIC for the trip is and stays in the left seat. We do alternate legs.

 

[gear_guy]

saet swap

This is an ongoing debate at my company.

G200- I usually agree with most of your posts, but not this time. In fact I think it is the other way around. What I find (most of the time) is that most captains are against the co-captain thing because of their precious ego. I know this question is in regards to Part 135, but as far as 91 ops. go, I don't see the issue. If both pilots are qualified to fly as captain, why can't the left seat guy be the PIC and the right seat guy be SIC? Then just trade seats every leg. I have found that the captains who are against this idea usually have serious confidence issues. They are so insecure about their flying capabilities, that they are afraid someone will do it better than they do. They must protect their job by using the old seniority excuse. Some even bring up the old imaginary line that cuts the cockpit in half. This is just pure stupidity. My question to these captains is "did you like it when you had to fly right seat for 10 years after you were captain qualified?" The response has been an overwhelming NO! Well, then lets break the chain. Luckily most corporate operators have realized the signifigance of having 2 qualified captains in their cockpit. For those who have'nt changed, we'll just have to wait for all those old farts to retire or die. Because it's a lost cause trying to convince them. Let's face it, not only is it safer, but it also eases scheduling. Welcome to the 21st century of corporate aviation.

Now tear me to shreds.

 

[Dep676]

Just remember NASA taught monkeys how to fly.

I could see if the guy was not typed or did not have a lot of time in the plane yet. I guess that would be a good idea to leave the guy in the right seat for awhile. Usually the only reason the guy is in the left seat is because he got hired first. If you both have time in the place and are typed there should be no question about swapping seats. Remember when you do go for your type you fly the sim from the left seat not the right. You take your type ride from the left and handle all the emergencies from the left. But now all of a sudden you are not worthy to sit the left seat in the real airplane.

I think you are correct by saying it has to do with the guys ego. He does not want some younger guy or new guy showing him that he can fly the plane just as good or better than the crusty old captain that has been there for years.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

gear guy,

I dont think you got what I was saying.

It is 100% normal for decent corp outfits to have all "Captains". Mine does (30+ of them). Im all for it. All I was saying is call it what you want, there is ALWAYS a PIC and an SIC. I dont care what seat you are in - heck on 3 man crew situations the PIC may be sleeping in back!...

All Im saying is that this "Co-Captain" thing is many times used to call a typed guy a "Captain" when he is too weak to be a PIC. Grey haired typed guys just cant be "Co-Pilots"...god forbid...everyone HAS to be a Captain..maybe its so thier wives or girlfriends think more of them?

There is only ONE PIC (Captain) on each flight. Dont believe me? Next time you land in Rio or Sao Paulo and its time to go through the wringer, lets see who volunteers when the feds ask "Who is the CAPTAIN?"....it aint gonna be the freakin "Co-Captain"...

My only point was that every flight needs a Captain (PIC) and a Co-Pilot (SIC)

As far as being an old guy who draws a line down the middle and has not awoken to 21st century corp flying....you might just be surprised at how old I really am!!..

..I WAS in high school in the 90's - put it that way....

 

[English]

..I WAS in high school in the 90's - put it that way....

OMG, you are younger than me????

Now I really feel old

 

[gear_guy]

G200-


My apologies. I guess I misunderstood you. I think I agree with you. And by the way, I did'nt ever mean to assume that you were a cockpit line drawer, or assume your age. I was just stating that this mentality exists.

Yes, even though you have co-captains there is always a PIC & SIC (just ask the FAA). My beef is with the fact that some people think that whoever has the most time (or has been there the longest ie.seniority) is the PIC. Just because one captain has 10k hours and the other one has 8k does'nt mean the 10k guy has the final authority. It also does'nt mean that the 8k guy is not PIC. I think this really boils down to CRM. The best way to disregard CRM is to think that whatever you say or do is right because you have x amount of flight time. Why can't whoever is in the left seat act as PIC? I know why most outfits have SIC's. It's the almighty $. At my company we have had guys with 5k hours, an ATP, and type-rating who have been SIC's for 8 years. They just don't want to pay for 2 captains. Most of the captains are outraged that a young kid could be a captain. This argument is blown out of the water when you see 21 year old kids flying the most advance aircraft in the world. I still think most of it is ego driven.

Fire away

 

[gear_guy]

BTW, I would be interested to know how the frac operators do it. They seam to have quite a few 4 stripers flying together.

 

[Dep676]

Well here at Flight Options we all wear four stripes. Rightfully so to. We are both trained as captains and are typed in the aircraft. Some of the fleets here swap legs and others only let the SIC's fly empty legs from the left. The reason for that is because whoever the knuckle head that wrote our SOP's put in there that an SIC shall not occupy the left seat on live legs. That however can be waived by the program manager and some choose to do so. The SIC can fly live legs from the right seat though. That makes a he!! of a lot sense huh? It should be up to the captain or PIC. I mean it does no good when upgrade time comes. You need to have left seat time if they expect you to be captain and fly from the left.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

luckily we dont have older guys who are upset younger fellas are able to be PIC's........they actually like it as they dont have to circle the globe as much anymore!! -- check the ego at the door thanks.

As far as all crews wearing 4 stripes at some outfits...Its amazing how one can seem to be pleased wearing 4 stripes even if you pay him like the SIC he really is..hey he's a CAPTAIN....err....CO-CAPTAIN I mean...after all, he did go to FSI and pass a PIC check...whoaaa.....call him CAP-EE-TANN..a monkeys penis could pass a PIC check in a FSI sim so long as there is a check pinned to the balls.

..again its the careful stroking of the dumb pilot ego....

Me?..well... Im a simple prik. You can CALL me anything you want....- even an a$$hole (as some here have!) - Just dont PAY me like an a$$hole...

 

[aroundtheblock]

This is how we do it at my flight ops... There are only 2 in our dept. I hired a low time guy who happens to be a good stick. He is typed in the airplane and we alternate legs in the left seat. He gains great experience flying left seat regardless of the weather. If it is his leg and an emergency occurs, which it has, it is still his leg. But rest assured, even though he is flying, I am always the Captain. He can fly it his way and on rare occasions I reccommend alternate techniques or thought. That isn't an ego thing, it's my job, to ensure safety and help mold the next generation of pilots. If something breaks or someone gets hurt the boss isn't going to ask who was flying, he will ask why I let it happen.

 

[Bandit60]

aroundtheblock

You said it exactly right. That is the same way we operate at our operation. Both pilots are qualified but the Capt. is still responsible. Don't forget type rated pilots can log pic but the Capt is still in charge. Like you said it is not an ego thing it is a responsiblity thing.

 

[gear_guy]

Both pilots are qualified but the Capt. is still responsible.

I think you are missing the point. If both are qualified, why can't both pilots be co-captains. The one in the left seat is the PIC/Captain for that leg of the flight. The other co-captain in the right seat is the SIC for that leg. Then they alternate every leg. That way when there is a screw up the boss can just ask, "who was flying?" And that pilot will be held responsible. Why is this such a hard concept to understand? I think we tend to get so hung up on what seat we sit in that we forget that our goal is to get pax to their destination safely. I just cant understand why anyone would be against this. I mean I understand the concept of paying your dues, but once you have some time in the aircraft, cut the guy loose. After all, you're not sending him out with an inexperienced SIC. He'll be with another captain. Someone give me a good reason why this will not work.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

well..

if its just two pilots in the whole operation and you both agree to this...why not!? whatever makes you happy..

start adding some more pilots and varying levels of experience and talent...then you better start designating a PIC per trip. Duties are defined by PIC/SIC...PIC files,calls handlers etc...SIC preflights etc....has nothing to do with seats..just the best way to be sure things get done...standards I suppose..