Scope Defeating Freedom Airlines

[Wiggums]

Also a lesson on how to whipsaw pilot groups...

Freedom Airlines Article

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Go Johnny O!!! It sounds like ALPA is going to get a spankin!!!!

But seriously, I know a few Mesa pilots and they are pretty excited for this Freedom Airlines to get going. It sounds like a pretty good deal for Mesa and its pilots.

 

[Wiggums]

Maybe not...

Why are Mesa's pilot union leaders againist Freedom then?

Are Mesa pilots and Freedom pilots going to be on the same list?

 

[skydiverdriver]

Does anyone see the irony in this? The airline with the most restrictive scope clause, (USAirways) is also in the worst shape of all of the airlines. I believe that there is a relationship there. The rjdc is the only body working to secure our rights, and it's obvious that every pilot should be helping out.

 

[rjcap]

This doesn't surprise me in the least. It was only a matter of time till some airline exec with an ounce of creativity was going to find a way to fly the 70 and 90 seat RJ's without some type of short sighted ALPA scope restriction blocking him.

 

[BeechScrub]

ALPA has no right to complain about Freedom. It is the leadership of ALPA that caused Freedom Airlines to have a purpose for being. Jonathan is doing what he has to do to ensure that Mesa expands and the flying is protected for Mesa pilots. He has been trying to work it out with union leadership from USAirways, America West, and Mesa since the end of last summer so these planes could stay with Mesa, but no one would budge. Now Jonathan has no time to argue because he must start training soon since Freedom will start in July.

It's going to be a great deal for Mesa pilots; I am excited about it. They are going to give everyone on Mesa's seniority list the opportunity to fly for Freedom, in seniority order. The seniority lists will be separate. Freedom will start as an operating division of Mesa, but will be spun off as an IPO soon after its start-up.

BeechScrub

 

[fatburger]

I have a question for MESA pilots? Is your mec on board with the alter-ego freedom airlines?
And if they are not, would pilots who leave ALPA to go with freedom airlines be considered scab pilots? I'm also curious if there are any MESA pilots who have considered any future ramifications with trying to gain employment with a major airline after freedom?

thanks for your time.................furloughed fatburger

 

[UALX727]

Just another way to get concessions from Mesa pilots.....nice threatening statement.....

"I'm going to give our people the opportunity to fly these airplanes. If they don't want to, I'll have to hire someone else."

So this guy is the C.E.O. of Mesa, he is in contract negotiations with the Mesa pilots (ALPA), and plans to start another carrier? Classic management whipsaw action........

I hope the Mesa pilot's stand their ground and don't settle for **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**tty wages. Can't you guys read between the lines here? Do any of you on this board think Mesa pays high wages to it's pilots??? I'm not certain what the Mesa pilots get paid, but I was a regional guy and I know we didn't make a whole lot of money. Obviously, this C.E.O. thinks the Mesa guys make too much, or else why would he make a statement like that??? He knows that the Mesa pilots would love to do that flying and he's using this alter-ego startup to threaten them.

If this new airline does start-up, I would look at it as taking away flying from Mesa, and in my own opinion I would equate these Freedom pilots to dimestreet whores.

 

[BeechScrub]

The only way a pilot can be considered a scab is if he/she crosses the picket line and flies struck work. Mesa pilots are not on strike and the pilots who join Freedom would not be scabs. They would simply be taking advantage of a growth opportunity.

What future ramifications are you speaking of? If an airline were to not hire pilots from another particular airline because the pilots took the opportunity to fly larger equipment, make more money, and possibly improve their quality of life, then I'd say it is their loss.

As for the statements of UALX727, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I would say you should educate yourself on the situation at Mesa before you accuse our management of whipsawing or call our pilots whores.

BeechScrub

 

[RJFlyer]

This article is a direct result of scope gone bad. There are some very interesting parts to this article:

Officials of the Air Line Pilots Association representing Mesa pilots . . . want one collective bargaining agreement that covers all of Mesa's divisions - Mesa Airlines, Air Midwest, CCAIR - as well as the new airline. "We don't care how he sets up his corporate structure," said Andy Hughes, chairman of the union representing Mesa pilots. "We're only concerned that we have one contract for all our pilots."

Hmmm...ALPA wants one contract for all the divisions at Mesa. It's ok for Mesa, but not for Delta?

A clause in the contract between US Airways and its pilots restricts the size of the jets the airline's regional partners can operate, even if they fly them for other carriers. That means Mesa cannot fly the bigger jets for America West Express, Ornstein said.

This is completely asinine. Why should the US Air MEC have any control over what a non-owned company flies for another carrier? But scope is a good thing, right? It would seem the US Air MEC is intent on driving not only their own company out of business, but any others they can drag down with them.

Ornstein said Freedom is being started to operate 40 new 64- and 84-seat Canadair regional jets that Mesa already had agreed to acquire over the next few years to fly routes for Tempe-based America West Airlines. Mesa flies regional routes for the airline under the America West Express name.

So what if Delta buys AWA? We have even more carriers under DCI - and how does Freedom fit in with their 70- and 90-seat RJ's?

I can certainly see the logic in Ornstein's move. Mainline MEC tries to limit his ability to do business, he counters that by starting an airline free of their ridiculous scope provisions. I don't see this as an attempt to start an alter-ego, whipsaw airline - it wouldn't have been necessary without the USAir MEC's over-the-top scope.

 

[UALX727]

Beech,

I am calling any pilot a whore that would go work for Freedom AT THE EXPENSE of a Mesa pilot's job. I'm talking about someone not on the Mesa list at all. Kind of like a fleet-qualified scab that United brought in to fly in 1985, willing to do the flying at a lower rate at the expense of the United pilot group.

Maybe I'm off here, but isn't that Mesa's flying??? Seems like it's got Mesa's C.E.O., is the same type of flying that Mesa does, etc.

You are right, I probably should know more about the situation than I do. I can just see through this kind of sham, that's all. Throw "carrot-jets" in front of the pilot groups nose, tell them they can fly them, in return for concession X or concession Y. They did the same thing to us at the regional I was at a few years back. They union caved in to get the flying, next thing we knew we had F.O.'s on RJ-85 "smurf-jets" making 18 bucks an hour. 18 bucks an hour, no kidding.

 

[RJFlyer]

UALX727:

nice threatening statement..... "I'm going to give our people the opportunity to fly these airplanes. If they don't want to, I'll have to hire someone else."

How is that a threatening statement? It seems pretty straighforward and logical to me. The Mesa guys get first crack at the jobs. If enough don't want to make the change, they'll need to get the pilots from somewhere else. Either way, more pilot jobs are created, and that's a good thing, right?

Obviously, this C.E.O. thinks the Mesa guys make too much, or else why would he make a statement like that??? He knows that the Mesa pilots would love to do that flying and he's using this alter-ego startup to threaten them.

First, he said this: "The pilots are going to be stunned by what I offer." Oh yeah, sounds terrible. If 'the Mesa pilots would love to do that flying,' they can. They go to work for Freedom.

If this new airline does start-up, I would look at it as taking away flying from Mesa, and in my own opinion I would equate these Freedom pilots to dimestreet whores.

How is it taking flying away from Mesa? The airline is being started because Mesa can't expand and create that flying, because the USAir MEC is doing a great job of taking that flying (by not allowing anyone to do it). So who are the the dimestreet whores, then?

 

[Tref]

Here's a little clue in to some of you out there. The ONLY reason that being an airline pilot is a financially rewarding career is because of the strength of pilot unions.

Ever hear of New York Air? Ever hear of Frank Lorenzo? I hope so 'cause otherwise... here it comes again!

 

[publisher]

ok

Last time I looked, this is a free country and a person can start anything they want to with their money.

The sad fact is that all these forced agreements trying to cover all things across companies eventually fail. They fail because if JO's carriers become out of whack on a cost basis, someone else will start something and take the buisiness.

These agreements do not operate in a vacumn. When an outside event impacts things like the 11th, these agreements tend to harm more than help.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

I just love this argument. It is a like a dog chasing its tail. Thanks to UAL727, reading a "unionist" defend the most blood sucking union in modern history is a hoot.

From what I can gather Johnny O. is not doing this to stick it to the pilot union for negotiations. This is a move about financial viability of an airline. Mesa is talking about hiring 500 or so pilots due to this move so if you are on the bubble after Sept. 11 your job just became a bit more secure. If you are currently one of the 200 or so that are still on furlough, you now have your job back, a furlough I might add due to ALPA not accepting a pay reduction to ensure their pilots retained their jobs. If you are a consumer looking for alternative airlines to serve your community you will get that soon. The only loss is the power of ALPA to drive airlines into financial ruin and then blame it on management.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Just one more thing. Not to make this personal, but what is with the "whore" metaphor buing used by UAL727? A buddy of mine has been with Mesa for 7 years, a RJ capt., oodles of time, 3 type ratings and he is excited for Freedom airlines. Is he a "whore"?
What about the Continental pilots that took flying jobs from the COEX guys and put the COEX guys out on the street? Sounds pretty sleezy to me.

 

[Boeingman]

What about the Continental pilots that took flying jobs from the COEX guys and put the COEX guys out on the street? Sounds pretty sleezy to me.

The CAL pilots who flowed back to Express were allowed as part of a contractual agreement. During the good economic times, it allowed about 800 or so Express pilots to flow up to CAL. Many of the flowbacks were ex Express pilots. There was no complaining by Express pilots who got mainline jobs during the hiring boom.

When anyone hired on with Express, both provisions, good and bad were well known beforehand. Nothing sleazy about the enforcement of the flow through agreement.

Next time, have some facts before making wild accusations about "taking jobs". Those jobs were contractually entitled to those who flowed back. Period.

 

[Caveman]

Earl,

Good job. I couldn't have said it any better.

What mainline pilots don't understand is that we are not here to protect their jobs. We are here to improve our own quality of life. What they still don't get is that the days of regional t-props is over. We no longer have to make it to mainline to make a decent living. If some weird set of circumstances presents me with the opportunity to take a job making $150K a year I'll probably go for it. Otherwise I'll take seniority, quality of life, state of the art equipment and my $80K a year and live happily ever after. If that isn't enough for some pilots, fine. More power to them, but it isn't my responsibility to look after their economically unsupportable jobs for them. If they can find some sucker willing to pay them all that dough, good for them. The fly in the ointment is that the number of companies willing to do that at a loss of billions of dollars annually is rapidly diminishing.

 

[Boeingman]

Ever hear of New York Air? Ever hear of Frank Lorenzo? I hope so 'cause otherwise... here it comes again!

No kidding.

Some of these guys have stars in their eyes. Like the original NYA Franksuckers when Lorenzo stole the TI airplanes for his scabple airline.

Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

 

[UALX727]

Bottom line is this, 10 years from now there will be a whole lot more regional flying expansion in this country than major flying expansion. The high paying major airline job will slowly fade away because pilots "whore" themselves out just to get the flying. I won't even try to sugarcoat it. Sorry if that word offends some people but that's the way I see it. Don't even get me started about "pay for training." Another classic example of management taking advantage because there are pilots out there that do this. Hell, there is even a thread on this board about a guy advertising his services for free!!!

A lot of guys won't have a shot at flying for a major because their "dream job" has now been outsourced to the lowest bidder. The majors will only hire for attrition, and maybe not even that.

Can't any of you guys see whats happening long-term to the industry??? It used to be that the major airline pilots complained about the regional guys taking their flying. Now I find it funny that some regional pilots are complaining that other regional airlines are taking "their" flying!!! See what we are talking about?? It will continue, guaranteed. Management will always farm the flying out to the cheapest labor if they can get away with it. Doesn't matter if you are a major pilot, a regional pilot, whatever.....if someone will fly for less than that is where management will push it.

Look at this situation here at Freedom....Yeah, I'm sure your C.E.O. will give you guys the bank to fly these airplanes at a non-union airline....and what size aircraft are we talking, 65 to 85 seats??? That used to be good money to fly jets that size....I would be curious to see what he plans on paying these pilots.

Right now the majors have lots of guys on furlough(myself included) while most regionals are hiring and acquiring more regional jets. Why is that?? 3 words- CHEAP LABOR COSTS!!

Have fun at the regionals, it will be a long stay. I'd rather be furloughed at a major right now than flying for a regional. At least I know EVENTUALLY I will get my job back. If you are a regional pilot with a desire to move on to the majors be ready to stay at your regional for a long time the way the industry is going.

 

[ddp]

What you guys that think Freedom Air is a good idea don't see is that the whipsaw has already begun with CCAir. We didn't vote out ALPA which lead to our currect situation which is we are closing the company on June 1st unless you take an completely new contract. And if you think JO offered anything fair and reasonable in it your crazy. It does have FO pay at $18.00. And an unrestricted jet rate which means we could fly the 777 for nothing. Mesa guys on the west coast need to look and see what is happening on the east coast cause it is not pretty. JO has already said Freedom Air is going to be non-union. So how are you going to protect your fellow pilots that you leave at Mesa? How are you going to guarntee them you don't take all of their planes and flying? The only guarntees come from everyone sticking together and realizing this is a management scheme to get what JO wants. He doesn't care about who flies his routes. He only cares that he pays you alot less than your worth. And if Freedom does get a good deal, why keep Mesa?

 

[BeechScrub]

UAL

Last time I checked we were still in a free market economy. That means that companies are still allowed to employ whomever they want, and outsource work to cut expenses if they so desire. That is the way companies survive in times of economic hardship and maximize profits in times of prosperity. That is the way America works! If you can't take it, maybe Cuba's economic system works better for you.

It is the unethical practices of ALPA that has caused Freedom to come to pass. The US scope clause does not allow Mesa to fly those jets, even if they are not operated for US. How do you solve the problem? Start a new company and let your pilots fly those jets for the new company. It takes a bad situation and makes it better for almost all involved. If a pilot doesn't like it, he doesn't have to go.

I'll let you know what he plans to pay us when I find out.

BeechScrub

 

[FlyinBrian]

supply and demand

Supply of Pilots: Big
Demand for Pilots: Moderate
Market Pilot Wage: Not so big.

Q: The market works for Peanut Butter, Jelly, and porn. Why shouldn't it work for labor?

A: Because everyone should get paid a big wage for getting into a field they've chosen to get into.

Here is something to consider: In a market economy, value is not determined by how much time or effort you put into something. Nor is it determined by how much responsibility you bear. It is determined by how many people need your service and how many people are willing to provide your service.

Unions have done great things. They have improved the safety and professionalism of the industry. But they are also preventing growth, keeping pilots out of work, and driving their own airlines out of business.

Mesa ALPA leadership is against Freedom Air because it dessimates their power. Why else would they be opposed to their pilots getting better pay and work rules, and not having their jobs artificially limited with scope? They get all this WITHOUT UNION REPRESENTATION! Besides that, they have the option to vote for unionization if they wish. Skywest's pilots aren't considered "scabs" and I don't beleive they have a union. I'm going to pay close attention to what goes on at Freedom. Under good management, Unions aren't necessary. I don't know if JO can provide that kind of management, but it will be interesting to watch...

 

[fatburger]

for caveman, beech, FlyinBrian and anyone else who cares to listen:

The fact is that everything is cyclical. What goes around comes around! Airline profits and airline losses come and go. Right now, you support Freedom airlines because you feel ALPA is restricting:
a) your upgrade
b) which base you get
c) whether you hold a block or sit reserve
d) quality of life in general.

Right now your happy with $80,000 a year (and who wouldn't be). But I gaurentee you that when the cycle turns and things are good and the company is making record profits and senior management is reaping the rewards you'll wish you had a bigger piece of that pie. The whole reason labor is able to keep managment in check is through unions. Alpa, APA, SWALPA, Fed Ex.........whatever you chose you can thank them for providing you your nice paycheck and vacation you get.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

Hey Boeingman;

Tell the folks at COEX that the job they lost wasn't really theirs. Tell them it actually belonged to the guy they replaced. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. How long did it take for approx. 800, your number, to flow from COEX to Continental? Ya about what, 7 years? How long did it take for they to flow back?? About 7 months? Let me tell you what I think is most disgusting about this whole mess. If you are major airline pilot you think your job is worth a wage only limited by the amount of money located on planet earth, you think your job is worth keeping regional pilots on misers wages and treating them as if they are from some third world country, you think you deserve the job you just left when times are bad, you think that 10 days of work a 28 day bid period is just one or two too many. I could keep going but I hope you all get the point.

 

[Wiggums]

FlyinBrian – I think that the supply and demand for pilots is more complicated then jelly and porn. Pilot labor is also more complicated then other types of skilled labor. Unlike most consumer goods there are no ready substitutes to the pilots you already have working for you. If the cost of your current labor group is to high it’s very difficult, even in a non-union environment, to replace that group with another. Sure, there are plenty of starving CFIs that would jump at flying a jet, but they don’t have the correct experience. You’ll need captains with experience and types on your equipment, and airline management knows there isn’t a big enough supply of typed jet captians with experience ready to instantly replace their pilot labor in the event of a strike.

UALX727 – You’re not on furlough just because of cheap labor at other airlines. Even with cheap labor a small jet like a CRJ still costs more per seat to operate then a 737. However, if your only filling 40-50 seats then which one is going to make the company money? The reason for small jets is not because pilots are “whoring”, it’s because the market demands more point-to-point frequencies. Airlines are going to fill that demand with whatever equipment makes the most profit for who they are ultimately responsible for, the shareholders. I’d say that anyone that thinks that pilots can manipulate what aircraft a company flies with scope clauses and the like is holding on to false hope. If consumers demand small jet service then there is no way scope will work.

Also, UALX727, if pilots have to stay at a regional for a long time, I’ll bet that there wages will reach parity with mainline pay. If pilots are no longer able to use airlines operating small jets as stepping-stones to major airlines then they will take more time to fight for better pay at the regional level.

That said, I still don’t like idea of Freedom Airlines until some can explain how the pilot groups at Mesa are going to prevent whipsawing. I would certainly hope that ALPA does not give any trouble to pilots that go over to Freedom. However, I hope to pilots are sure they know what they are getting into. Past history shows that one company operating a bunch of different airlines or different pilot groups doesn’t work for pilot labor. Currently Delta is doing the same thing, and let’s not forget examples from the past like New York Air and American’s B-scales. What’s to stop Mesa from doing the same stuff that has happened before?

 

[Wiggums]

for caveman, beech, FlyinBrian and anyone else who cares to listen:

The fact is that everything is cyclical. What goes around comes around! Airline profits and airline losses come and go. Right now, you support Freedom airlines because you feel ALPA is restricting:
a) your upgrade
b) which base you get
c) whether you hold a block or sit reserve
d) quality of life in general.

I don't understand how profits coming back are going to help this situation. One ALPA pilot group (US Airways) has negotiated scope that has a negative impact on another pilot group (Mesa). If Airways starts making money again is ALPA suddenly going to cancel the scope restrictions on Mesa? This isn't going to happen.

I'm fine with the real reason for scope, protecting one pilot group’s flying from others, however, Airways scope isn't very effective. By preventing their regional partners from operating over a certain amount of small jets, even if they aren't on Airways codes creates a situation that is going to be challenged.

 

[Snakum]

I find myself coming back time and time again to try to get my brain around all the arguements relating to pilot pay, scope, and unions. I still can't help but feel that some of us expect airlines to disregard ECON 101 and provide the kind of jobs we expected regardless of the fiscal realities. I may be missing something, it wouldn't be the first time. But I just can't shake the feeling that some pilots feel an entitlement to a job with a major at the kind of (relative) salaries long-haul captains used to make in the glory days.

I, too, would love to be an international wide-body captain with the hat, white gloves, and a staggering paycheck/retirement package. That was my dream. However, what I'm picking up from almost everything I read is that RJs are the future of domestic flying, and that the pay and prestige of a pilot career is NEVER going to be what it was, as a result purely of market forces rather than evil intentions by airline management (though I'm sure some are as evil-intentioned as they come).

Still somewhat confused ....

Minh

 

[Boeingman]

Hey Boeingman;

Tell the folks at COEX that the job they lost wasn't really theirs. Tell them it actually belonged to the guy they replaced. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. How long did it take for approx. 800, your number, to flow from COEX to Continental? Ya about what, 7 years? How long did it take for they to flow back?? About 7 months? Let me tell you what I think is most disgusting about this whole mess. If you are major airline pilot you think your job is worth a wage only limited by the amount of money located on planet earth, you think your job is worth keeping regional pilots on misers wages and treating them as if they are from some third world country, you think you deserve the job you just left when times are bad, you think that 10 days of work a 28 day bid period is just one or two too many. I could keep going but I hope you all get the point.

The only point I get is you sound like a guy with a real chip on your shoulder about your job and it's future. Personally, I could care less what you or the regional pilots make. I don't care what pilots are paid anywhere except for CAL pilots.

Yap all you want, the flowthrough, good or bad it is part of the contract and being adhered to the letter. The only thing that I expect (not deserve) is the company honor that contract to the letter. Which they are doing.

Save the rest of your sophmoric diatribe for someone else.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I think that the supply and demand for pilots is more complicated then jelly and porn. Pilot labor is also more complicated then other types of skilled labor

We like to think that it's more complicated because it justifies an artificially high wage in our minds. The lack of a suitible alternate good for pilot labor changes the elasticity of demand, but does not release the good or service from the forces of supply and demand. The monopoly that the union holds on labor does that.

airline management knows there isn’t a big enough supply of typed jet captians with experience ready to instantly replace their pilot labor in the event of a strike.

The threat of a strike is precisely what gives unions their monopoly. Without it, there would be plentiful supply of pilots ready to take the jobs.

I'm not entirely against unions. I beleive that we should protect the integrity of our profession. But I hate to see unions that think the company is the enemy. It is almost laughable that some pilots really don't care about the company's bottom line. If a company doesn't generate revenue, there is nothing to pay the big salaries. Unions and management should work together, but they don't. They take an adversarial role and just feed each others' loathing of the other. MANAGEMENT IS NOT TOTALLY TO BLAME FOR THIS. At this time, when it's all an airline can do to stay in business, I see pilots actually saying

"They signed the contract, it's up to the coporate bean counters to find the money"

What the heck is that? That attitude will put airlines out of business, and then what is all your seniority worth? Mesa's Union wouldn't take a freaking 3 month 10% pay cut to prevent a furlough. Of course the union leadership wasn't in any danger of working at circle K when they made that decsion. You call that Unity? I don't. Ask their fuloughees if ALPA is responsible for their great pay and work rules. If Mesa's union exists for the benefit of the pilots, why are they afraid that their pilots are going to go somewhere to fly bigger planes for more money? Shouldn't they want that for their people?

Then there is scope. Let me try to define that: "A clause that prevents other airlines from doing the flying that they don't want to do." Again, the "screw profitablility" attitude. If an RJ is the most profitable piece of equipment, the company has to fly it in order to stay competitive. If mainline pilots aren't willing to fly it (and suffer the appropriate pay cut based on seat-miles) Then why can't somebody else? Kudos to the APA for proposing an integration, although they turned their noses up at the idea until their own pilots were on the street.

All I'm trying to do is point out that unions are not all they are cracked up to be. They have a labor monopoly, and that is dangerous.

(End of Rant. I guess I'm a little bitter because the union bickering is keeping me on the street.)