Scenic vs. Vision

[wt219200]

I need a little help with this one. I need to know if Vision is really as bad as everyone says it is on this forum. Mostly people who have flown there so I'm sure a lot of it is true. I want to fly for Scenic but they are just a mess right now. Dropping the 1900's, moving to BLD, and rumors of basing pilots at GCN. So Vision is sounding more and more better. Plus they fly the 228 and have two 328's with more coming. I am a CFI at VGT so I've heard all kinds of good and bad things about both places. The PFT thing is out of the question for Vision, they said that when I get 1000 total come talk to them and I won't have to. Who knows. Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[JumpCaptain]

Who is vision? Never heard of 'em.

 

[wt219200]

Vision Air tours, they fly Dornier 228's and 328's out of North Las Vegas

 

[incognito]

• Vision is not part 121; Scenic is.
• Vision is PFT; Scenic is not.
• Vision does not have the positive reputation in the industry that Scenic does.
• Scenic is NOT going to base pilots in GCN.
• Scenic has made the choice to put its money in the tour side of the operation because that's where more money can be made. (If you doubt this, reseach the average profit, or lack thereof, per seat-mile at other airlines.)
• Scenic pilots easily and with monotonous regularity make the transition to other carriers: e.g, Alaska, America West, Continental Express, Horizon, Ryan International, Skywest, Southwest, etc.

To more clearly ID the reputation of either airline, search for both in these forums and the answer will be clear.

Plus, Scenic generally has happy pilots, which is hard to find in this industry.

 

[ootskdog]

Is Scenic still associated with Eagle Canyon Airlines? I worked for them many moons ago, not sure if they are still around, but I heard they merged with Scenic a while back.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

I flew for Scenic last year. It is a good job if the regional's aren't your thing or if you're low TT and know your stuff.
Vision contracts out the Dornier 328 and it's pilots (at least they did last year). Vision pilots flew the Dornier 228's and the Jetstreams, but not the 328's.
Vision FO's don't make much, but Vision captains make pretty good wages, $50,000+ and they fly a ton. If you plan on keeping the job for a few years, Vision might equal higher wages, but a lower quality of life.
Scenic has some changes happening, but they're not all happening at once and they aren't all happening right away. I wouldn't worry about them being a "mess", things are still pretty good there from what I hear from my old captain buddies.
If you're just looking to get some twin turbine time and then leave for a regional, don't forget that Scenic has a 1 year training contract. It is pro-rated quarterly. If you want to stay for the PIC time, Scenic has a quick upgrade once you get your ATP and you get 121 PIC time too.

Oh yeah, and yes, Scenic is affiliated with Eagle Canyon Airlines. In fact their business is Eagle Canyon Airlines dba. (doing business as) Scenic Airlines. I don't know the specifics, I think they operate on the old ECA certificate.

 

[incognito]

Fact Check

Scenic is not affiliated with Eagle Canyon Airlines; here's the short story:

• In 1998, the Yamagata Aviation Group owned Eagle Jet Charter (a 121 certificate) and Eagle Canyon Airlines (a 135 certificate). Eagle Canyon Airlines bought Scenic's 121 certificate and changed the name to Eagle Canyon Airlines dba Scenic Airlines. For a while, the company operated the two certificates--one with F-27s and B-1900s, the other with DHC-6s.
• In 2003, the Eagle Jet Charter certificate was sold; the F-27s went away; and the B-1900s moved to the Eagle Canyon certificate with the DHC-6s.
• In 2005, the name on the Eagle Canyon Airlines certificate was changed back to Scenic Airlines, Inc. dba Scenic Airlines.
• The certificate still operates B-1900s and DHC-6s under part 121. The certificate will remain 121 after the B-1900s go away, just as it was before their arrival.

Because of the nature of the industry, Scenic does have a training agreement, which is prorated quarterly over 12 months. That helps a small carrier recoup the thousands of dollars in training costs should someone decide simply to use the company as a résumé builder rather than a time and career builder. NO money is paid up front, and pilots earn their guarantee from day one in ground school.

Vision is PFT up front! (enough said)

 

[wt219200]

Pft

To clear a few things up. The assistant chief pilot told me the PFT thing is for very low timers. It is a contract to buy hours in the 228. I think 200 are guaranteed. Your job is not. They decide to hire you after your "intern" period or not hire you. Now if you get hired with around 1000TT no PFT. If it was all PFT then Vision would be out of the question. I've put too much time in instructing to just go buy a job. Plus I don't need to go $7,500 in more debt. That is what I've been told. Maybe a recent pilot from Vision can confirm this. Because I am not 100 percent on all of this. Thanks

 

[Peter Brady]

To clear a few things up. The assistant chief pilot told me the PFT thing is for very low timers. It is a contract to buy hours in the 228. I think 200 are guaranteed. Your job is not. They decide to hire you after your "intern" period or not hire you. Now if you get hired with around 1000TT no PFT. If it was all PFT then Vision would be out of the question. I've put too much time in instructing to just go buy a job. Plus I don't need to go $7,500 in more debt. That is what I've been told. Maybe a recent pilot from Vision can confirm this. Because I am not 100 percent on all of this. Thanks

You cleared it up.

Vision IS PFT.

 

[wt219200]

Do you or did you fly for them Mr. Brady?

 

[Daytonaflyer]

I stand corrected on Eagle Canyon Airlines dba Scenic Airlines, my mistake. Thanks for clearing that up. Regardless, flying at Scenic was still a great experience I'll never forget.

 

[agpilot]

What is PFT?

 

[wt219200]

You cleared it up.

Vision IS PFT.

"Now if you get hired with around 1000TT no PFT"

Thanks you also cleared everything up. You apparently didn't ever work for Vision. The above statement was from me standing in Vision's ops building and talking to the ACP. Anything else you would like to add to this thread to help us all out.

Oh and PFT is Pay For Training. A way companies like to screw pilots.

 

[agpilot]

Thanks for the info. I have my sites on flying cropdusters, but the other sides of aviation sound interesting as well

 

[incognito]

A rose by any other name...

Gloss it up, make it sound pretty, call it what you want: Vison is PFT.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Does Scenic hire captains or just FO's?

 

[wt219200]

Gloss it up, make it sound pretty, call it what you want: Vison is PFT.

So where does the fact that the Assistant Chief Pilot telling me that if I have 1,000 hours I won't have to PAY FOR TRAINING fit in here.

Why is this so hard to understand.

Maybe if people would explain why they are so sure it's PFT this wouldn't be so difficult.

 

[mcjohn]

PFT is a matter of principle and ethics. No matter when you market to take an in debt pilot's left over credit. Common sense will inform that it is a way for a strange company to stay a float.

 

[VAPOR]

So where does the fact that the Assistant Chief Pilot telling me that if I have 1,000 hours I won't have to PAY FOR TRAINING fit in here.

Why is this so hard to understand.

Maybe if people would explain why they are so sure it's PFT this wouldn't be so difficult.

Q: Why would the Assistant Chief Pilot tell you that you don't have to PFT when he can find someone else who will?

You may want to contact them again to confirm.

 

[psysicx]

So the Captains getting hired off the street at Gulfstream are PFT?

 

[mcjohn]

One thing that might be a factor regarding Gulfstream hiring off the street is they could be getting desperate to staff the planes when their PFT business is way down. I know Jet University has hurt their business and the internet levels the playing field as far as interested students learning what really goes on there and how they will be perpeptuating a bad company to stay bad and reap HUGE profits by not hiring and paying a qualified pilot to transport paying passengers. Of course getting hired off the street for Gulfstream is not PFT but it IS working for a company that chooses not to pay a large percentage of their pilots and would rather take their money instead.

 

[Hadhafang]

Scenic is starting to do the Canyon tours now. I think they just started on Monday. Someone mentioned before that they might be basing pilots out of GCN, but I think that if they do, it will be only temporary. I fly tours up here at the Canyon and have talked with several Scenic pilots, all of whom like there jobs. I also know some pilots that recently got hired at Vision, but I haven't talked to them in a while. They also had flown here at the Canyon and knew people in the company. For Scenic, since they have started the tours, Canyon time would be a huge plus on someone's resume. Although they do fly to different airports, they occassionally use the Twin Otter for what it was developed - short, unpaved runways. They frequently have flights to Monument Valley, which if anyone knows what that runway is like should be impressed. (I think Airnav has a picture.) So of the two, Vision is more of an airline and Scenic is an airline with also an emphasis on tours. Just depends on what you want. Anyway that's my two cents.

 

[USA_Av8r]

I used to work at Vision, the above statement is incorrect. Scenic does tours year round. The info that they started doing tours last week is incorrect. Here is the bottom line on both. If you want to fly 1000 hours in a turboprop in less than a year at a furious pace, while not having any time off then Vision is the way to go. Scenic is just as busy but you have a much better schedule. I am pretty sure you can bid for lines like an airline.
Life at Vision is much better than it used to be but if you go that route make sure you are ready to work at full steam.

 

[Formula1]

Once VIsion goes from being part 135 non-scheduled to part 135 scheduled for the DO-328 then they will have to give you a few extra days off. Maybe things will get a little better in the future.

From What I hear, you can upgrade as soon as you have the ATP minimums and you will accumulate your turbine PIC time very quickly just as someone else has previously mentioned. SO if you wanted to rack up alot of turbine PIC time quickly then this would probably be a good place. And no it is not pay for training for everyone.

 

[infiniti757]

The lowdown on Vision

I live here in Vegas and a very good friend just got hired by Vision. Here is the deal:

Vision is 121 and 135. The training and manual system as well as the supplemental operations to Phoenix are 121 approved. The operations to the Grand Canyon are 135 due to the type of A/C and size of the operations they do there.

The 135 operations are in the DO228s. The majority of flights are out to the Grand Canyon Airport and back. There are some air tours, and during summer rafting season they fly people into seversal dirt strips inside the canyon.

The 328s are operated under 135 and 121. They only go out to GCN under 135. In addition the fly to Phoenix as a 121 carrier under EAS. They are also going to add Palomar later in the year. They have Much bigger expansion plans for the 121 operation.

The fleet consist of 5 228s, and 2 328s. There are two more 328s going through compliance and they should be online in the next 2 or 3 months. In addition a deal for three 328JETs was inked in the last two weeks. These A/C should be online in the next 6-12 months. Vision has 5 or so 228s parked on the East side of the VVT airport that they are slowly putting online one by one. A sixth 228 is in the hangar and should be online by the end of the year. In addition to these planes they also have 2 737s in exec configuration flying around in Europe, and they Manage all of the aircraft for Roush Racing.

They don't have enough pilots on property to keep up with fleet growth so they are hiring like crazy. The class my friend was in had 13 pilots in it. The upgrade times will be very quick in the 228s. There is one seniority list and apparently they try to stick with it but they really need people so people with the right kind of experience can get Captain jobs off the street in both types. They are running another class right after the current one.

The QOL is OK they do work their guys hard but, it's because they are short pilots. Lots of guys are going to time out and get the last two months of the year off, and lots of them want it that way. The pay is OK, its better than what Scenic pays. Upgrade times are quick. You will work hard but, in my opinion a nice paycheck does a lot more for quality of life than anything else.

Getting hired sounds simple. Apparently there are three ways to go. If you have IFR 135 mins then you get hired based on merit. If you are low time then you might be offered the pilot development program which is basically pay for training and then they hire you if they like you ( I personally don't disrespect this as much as a larger company that just makes you pay to keep you around even if you have the time, if you want a job with 400 hours go flight instruct like the rest of us had to). Lastly Vision has deals with some European airlines where the airlines buy a certain amount of time for their pilots to build experience and then go back to work for their European airline. Of the class of 13 my friend was in, their were 2 Europeans, 1 pilot development person and the rest were guys with the time to fly. One guy was hired as 328 capt, 1 as 228 capt, one as 328 FO, 6 as Capt upgrades after about one month and the rest as FOs.

My friend says that management is very accessible and that they are all a good bunch of guys. For him it sounds like a good way to avoid the regionals and still get quality experience.

As far as Vision vs Scenic, it seems that they are both good companies with different merits. Sounds to me like Scenic is a time building place whereas Vision is a place you'd want to stay a little longer. My 2 cents.

 

[Hadhafang]

I used to work at Vision, the above statement is incorrect. Scenic does tours year round. The info that they started doing tours last week is incorrect. Here is the bottom line on both. If you want to fly 1000 hours in a turboprop in less than a year at a furious pace, while not having any time off then Vision is the way to go. Scenic is just as busy but you have a much better schedule. I am pretty sure you can bid for lines like an airline.
Life at Vision is much better than it used to be but if you go that route make sure you are ready to work at full steam.

Not to be disrespectful or anything, I work at the Canyon NOW and, yes, Scenic has started doing tours. They have been training their pilots on the SFAR routes for the last month. There were actually 2 people on Monday that had booked a Canyon tour with Scenic, but as they were the only two pax that had booked, Scenic gave them a Monument Valley tour instead. Scenic just does not have the passenger base to be doing the Canyon tours all day, yet. So, I don't know what information you have, but Scenic has just started doing the Canyon tours. Yes, they have done other tours for years, but it is the Canyon tours that are new for them. Hopefully, they will do a better job than GCA of flying the proper routes and making position reports.

 

[USA_Av8r]

Also, not to be disrepsectful but I really dont know what you mean by saying that. I worked at Vision over the last two years and once for a year in 1999. Scenic has always done canyon tours, they do it 365 days a year. Just as vision and GCA etc etc etc does.

 

[mcjohn]

infinity757, thanks for taking the time to provide all that info. That's what this place is all about. It really levels the playing feild. Thanks.

 

[Hadhafang]

Also, not to be disrepsectful but I really dont know what you mean by saying that. I worked at Vision over the last two years and once for a year in 1999. Scenic has always done canyon tours, they do it 365 days a year. Just as vision and GCA etc etc etc does.

OK, I work right across the hall from them and they just started doing the actual Black 1 and Black 1A routes over the Canyon. Those are the actual Canyon routes that the air tours fly. Vision does not do those Canyon tours. They do transition routes over the Canyon not the actual low level routes that are for tours. So, either you worked at Vision a long time ago or you have been given wrong information about Scenic.

 

[VAPOR]

Clarification...

Scenic has been flying Grand Canyon tours consistently since 1967. What Scenic recently started again is conducting Grand Canyon tours that originate at the Grand Canyon National Park Airport. As Grand Canyon Airlines and Scenic Airlines were previously the same airline, this is not "new". Scenic and Vision fly Canyon tours, usually originating in Las Vegas, other than the Black routes and the transition routes (i.e. Blue, Brown routes) and have been since the evolution of the SFRA.