SCABS and the industry.

[nimtz]

I can tell you from experience, a strike is useless, far more is lost than gained. DON’T leave the cockpit that is when you LOOSE control. Heck taxi slow, run the APU, a lot. But don’t walk out it causes to much loss, in my opinion. But what would I know about it. $42 bucks a barrel should be of far more interest that 1989.

So did the UAL guys LOSE CONTROL back in '85? Seems to me that they saved the profession from entering into the B-Scale days we are headed towards today. What about the Northwest guys in '98? Every labor contract is unique and sometimes walking the line is the only option left. Question is whether or not the individual has the character and pride not to cross it.

 

[Publishers]

Feed

Strength in unity for what and where is there any unity in any of these groups.

Let's see-- feed my family or fight someone elses fight that I have no interest in and do not believe is right or in anyones interest.

 

[FLB717]

If the dollors you gain far out weigh the loss from you having no pay, passenger going to someone else and the companies savings being reduced (the ability to operate AND meet you demands) then head on out. But I can tell you I won't walk from my current company, because we would not survive a CMR or NWA type strike. I wont kill the Goose to get an extra egg today. I am not wiley Coyote jumping off a cliff just to show you I have no fear of gravity. Anyone want to take shots or make comments thats me or my position thats ok. But if you have not been on the edge of self help or used it, your arm chair comments have little effect on me. I would rather fight from the left or right seat then along the terminal with a paper slogan. Costing DAL 700 million so you can feed your kids and buy a car that was made in the last decade and the hiring is going great is a good reason to walk. Walking out to pay for your third vacation this year, and you work 12 or 15 days, is stupid. My .000002 cents

 

[scabseeker]

Hmmm...let's see here... your friend is ON at AT and is probably flying the 717, and you are......NOT...

Nope I'm not with Air Tran and I have no animosity toward anyone there except the scabs. I am merely pointing out that AT may not have an abundance of scabs but they are in high positions which makes me a little ill.

BTW, they called me for an interview in 2000 I turned them down and do not regret my decision.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

but please don't make a comparison to feeding a person's family vs. taking a person's life!

I didn't.
I asked where you are willing to draw the line on what you would do to "feed your family". Where you draw the line is the line that ultimately defines your values. Are you willing to:

-drive 1 mph over the speed limit
-drive 6 mph over the speed limit
-drive 16 mph over the speed limit
-drive 36 mph over the speed limit
-ask someone how they are doing when you don't care
-tell your wife her fat a$$ doesn't look fat in that dress
-not tell your company they overpaid you by 12 dollars one month
-not tell your company they overpaid you by 1200 dollars
-not tell your company they overpaid you by 12000 dollars
-steal a ham from your neighbor to feed your family
-steal from a stranger
-kill someone

I'll leave it to you to insert disrupting organized labor actions that are voted upon by a group that you are a member of which are meant to be in the best interest of the majority of the group. I would no sooner cross a line than kill someone. That's not the same as saying one equals the other.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Re: Feed

Strength in unity for what and where is there any unity in any of these groups.

Let's see-- feed my family or fight someone elses fight that I have no interest in and do not believe is right or in anyones interest.

So if you've been in negotiations for four years, and make 50% what your peers make, and you management team continually violates your contract and laughs at your negotiating team, and you've got ten years seniority invested ... you're going to consider it "someone else's fight?"

 

[PurpleInMEM]

Scabs....got no time for'em

I've worked in two other heavily unionized industries over the years. One of which I'm still involved with on a part-time basis (I hold two AFL-CIO union cards, ALPA and HHCWU). We as pilots have to get over this "we're white collar professionals" "treat EVERYONE with respect" shiny, happy, people bull$hit. In my other life the only time you'd see a scab on the property after a strike is if he was caught in the crossfire and didn't make it out alive. We all expect scum-bag management types to hire replacement workers during a strike, but afterwards these douche bags are sent packing. But not in aviation, oh no. In our own unions we accept them like it never happened. In my view this is why our current "association" is not a labor union in the traditional sense. We don't support each other mutually, we don't OPENLY share the scab list and we definitely don't make it VERY uncomfortable for those who feel it necessary to back stab other pilots.

Am I advocating a hostile work environment towards scabs, you bet I am. Is it legal, I really don't care. The typical scab argument is "I have a mortgage" "I have kids to feed", yada yada yada (respects to Seinfeld). Well guess what? So does everyone else. My last strike sent me from my nice comfortable hospital job to working at a convenience store and driving a school bus. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The only power you have in this "relationship" between management and labor is your ability to walk out. Luckily in most other industries you can do this when the clock strikes midnight, but again not in aviation. It's VITAL to the national economy. BULL!!

Imagine this...a contract amendable date comes up, negotiations are already underway, and the second the clock strikes midnight the pilots simply don't go to work. What would happen??? Well some judge would fine the union, jail the union leaders, make all kinds of threats....but ultimately if the pilots didn't go to work, the people or boxes wouldn't get moved, period!!! I've experienced this first hand, judicial intervention and all. We didn't go back to work and within a day the company was back to negotiating in "good faith". Scabs do nothing but undermine this tool of ours, limited that it already is.

It's time for us as pilots to realize that we're nothing more than contract employees providing a service to the company that writes the check. Collectively we do better together than one-on-one. Get what you can, when you can, any way you can. Can't stand the heat; go find something else to do. All scabs should get gonorrhea and die.

Now…where’s the Tylenol?

 

[:-)]

I didn't.
I asked where you are willing to draw the line on what you would do to "feed your family". Where you draw the line is the line that ultimately defines your values. Are you willing to:

-drive 1 mph over the speed limit
-drive 6 mph over the speed limit
-drive 16 mph over the speed limit
-drive 36 mph over the speed limit
-ask someone how they are doing when you don't care
-tell your wife her fat a$$ doesn't look fat in that dress
-not tell your company they overpaid you by 12 dollars one month
-not tell your company they overpaid you by 1200 dollars
-not tell your company they overpaid you by 12000 dollars
-steal a ham from your neighbor to feed your family
-steal from a stranger
-kill someone

I'll leave it to you to insert disrupting organized labor actions that are voted upon by a group that you are a member of which are meant to be in the best interest of the majority of the group. I would no sooner cross a line than kill someone. That's not the same as saying one equals the other.

Did you hear the one about the rich old man who asked the beautiful blond for sex? It goes like this:

Old Man: Will you make love to me?
Blond: No
O M : Will you make love to me for one million dollars?
B : Well, I guess maybe I would like to make love to you.
O M : well, here's a twenty. Now lets's do it.
B : Twenty, What kind of girl do you think I am?
O M : We've already established that, now we're just haggling over price.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sheesh. We do have a few "street scabs" who got themselves into Management's good graces here, . . . but I would be willing to bet that is not uncommon at other carriers, after all, we are talking about Management, right?

Regardless, If you had taken the job, you'd be making around $120K as a fourth year Captain, and probably be seeing a lot of familiar faces in your right seat, arriving from your previous employers.

Instead, you are doing what, again?

 

[scabseeker]

Instead, you are doing what, again?

You don't want to know...

 

[climbhappy]

is there any truth that several guys have busted type rides because of old eastern scabs like dick "they call him the undertaker". Is the training dept run by old eatern guys or younger former regional guys that have been there a say 5,6 or 7 years?

 

[flx757]

Is the training dept run by old eatern guys or younger former regional guys that have been there a say 5,6 or 7 years?

What exactly do you mean my "run by"? There are old Eastern guys and former regional guys both in the training dept. Although they did "run" THIS particular guy to Alaska.

And having been an instructor/evaluator for many, many years...your inferrence that guys "busted" their checkride because of the instructor/check airman is so common....former Eastern scab or not. Of course, it is ALWAYS the instructor or check airman's fault....NEVER the fact that the pilot was unprepared or just totally screwed up....right??

One more point about this partuicular check airman. I had him for my intitial FO check ride, and if I were the examiner, there was NO WAY that I would have passed someone who performed as I did that day...however, I got by. I'm sure had I been a Captain or going for a type (I already had a type in this particular aircraft), it would have been a different story, but had I failed (like I probably should have) it would have been due to my own poor performance, and nothing else.

I'm not here defending scabs, Eastern scabs, this check airman, AirTran's training dept (well... I'm defending them by referring to the fact that instead of working there, I'm working at Alaska...so take that for what it's worth)....I'm just trying to make a point about airline training in general, something I know a thing or two about.

 

[ivauir]

A person who has flaws in one part of their lives rarely have it compartmentalised

This was ealry on in the thread but I had to bite ... dude, so you're perfect? What kind of logic is this? Hmmm tell you what ChinaClipper, I'll try the same logic on you ...

ChinaClipper misspelled "extremist" and used the wrong form of the verb "to have" (try "has"). Therefore he has a flaw in his english eduacation. This flaw is not compartmentalised. Therefore ChinaClipper is an uneducated slob. This flaw is also not compartmentalised. Therefore ChinaClipper beats his wife, is the "real killer" (a la OJ), doesn't like puppies, goes faster than 250 below 10, will vote for Nader, and will Scab during the next strike. Wow, you're kind of a jerk dude ...

 

[climbhappy]

re; trainingdept

flx757

i think you're dead on. i've had bad hair days in the sim. everyone has. it's not always the check airman's fault. however, i know of one former cc air colleague who went in for his FO prof check. apparently, or should i say allegedly, he was given an unsat for the oral portion. i think he may have been shocked or to be fair unprepared to recall dc-9 stuff. he was terminated. bottom line is, for a prof check, one must at this level certainly crack a book to appear at least somewhat professional. we know this stuff oozes out over time from our memory.

given the age of eastern pilots there, i would think in a few more years that the training dept (if it doesn't already) at airtran will certainly reflect the youth of the company at some point in the future!

 

[Tripower455]

Have any of you guys actually denied a seat to someone on the list?

I had an Eastern scab try to ride my jumpseat from JFK to DCA DURING the strike...... I was a DHC-7 Capt for PAE. Here I am, paying a strike assessment, and this dirtbag comes on an ALPA carrier and asks for a jumpseat while his former brethren are picketing 200 yards away. I told him in no uncertain terms that he wasn't riding on my airplane. Before taxi, I looked back in the cabin to make sure everyone was seated, and I saw a gold epaulet all the way in the back. I called the FA and asked her who was sitting in the back seat, and she told me it was the scab! He told her that I said it was OK to sit in back! I stopped the taxi, and called a bus back for him, and told the FA to tell him to get his stuff, and get off the aircraft, and that if he gave her a problem, that I'd be back to take care of it. He got off. Had we not been an hour late, I would have called security on him, but it had already been a very long day.

I have little use for scabs. Their mere presence severely undermines our chosen profession. The is no statute of limitations on scabs. NEVER forgive them for what they've done to cheapen this profession. Once a scab, always a scab. I know several guys from the commuters that crossed (off the street) at EAL, and I will never speak to them again.

 

[jobear]

Re: Scabs....got no time for'em

I've worked in two other heavily unionized industries over the years. One of which I'm still involved with on a part-time basis (I hold two AFL-CIO union cards, ALPA and HHCWU). We as pilots have to get over this "we're white collar professionals" "treat EVERYONE with respect" shiny, happy, people bull$hit. In my other life the only time you'd see a scab on the property after a strike is if he was caught in the crossfire and didn't make it out alive. We all expect scum-bag management types to hire replacement workers during a strike, but afterwards these douche bags are sent packing. But not in aviation, oh no. In our own unions we accept them like it never happened. In my view this is why our current "association" is not a labor union in the traditional sense. We don't support each other mutually, we don't OPENLY share the scab list and we definitely don't make it VERY uncomfortable for those who feel it necessary to back stab other pilots.

Am I advocating a hostile work environment towards scabs, you bet I am. Is it legal, I really don't care. The typical scab argument is "I have a mortgage" "I have kids to feed", yada yada yada (respects to Seinfeld). Well guess what? So does everyone else. My last strike sent me from my nice comfortable hospital job to working at a convenience store and driving a school bus. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The only power you have in this "relationship" between management and labor is your ability to walk out. Luckily in most other industries you can do this when the clock strikes midnight, but again not in aviation. It's VITAL to the national economy. BULL!!

Imagine this...a contract amendable date comes up, negotiations are already underway, and the second the clock strikes midnight the pilots simply don't go to work. What would happen??? Well some judge would fine the union, jail the union leaders, make all kinds of threats....but ultimately if the pilots didn't go to work, the people or boxes wouldn't get moved, period!!! I've experienced this first hand, judicial intervention and all. We didn't go back to work and within a day the company was back to negotiating in "good faith". Scabs do nothing but undermine this tool of ours, limited that it already is.

It's time for us as pilots to realize that we're nothing more than contract employees providing a service to the company that writes the check. Collectively we do better together than one-on-one. Get what you can, when you can, any way you can. Can't stand the heat; go find something else to do. All scabs should get gonorrhea and die.

Now…where’s the Tylenol?

OMG I think I'm in love. Guys I say this a purely plutonic way

Jobear

 

[Mugs]

Re: and who cares

Children, can we never move on.

You cannot even get loyalty out of your own unions and you run around labeling others for their lack of loyalty to your cause, maybe not theirs.

OK Big Daddy, whatever you say.

Publishers, have you ever spent a single day of your life flying the line anywhere? Doing the job day in and day out? Did you ever get stuck flying for Lorenzo?

I didn't think so.

Take your "children" comment and stick it up your six.

 

[Publishers]

Mugs

Mugs

Your grown up and mature approach pretty much said it all.

 

[flx757]

So, have you?

 

[Mugs]

Mugs

Your grown up and mature approach pretty much said it all.

Does grown up and mature include pretending to be understand situations and experiences that you have never been in like you do?

 

[Publishers]

Osmosis

Well in 35 years perhaps I learned something about this industry even if it was through Osmosis. Now Mugs you may not agree with one thing that I say or think but it will not be because I do not know or appreciate the life of a commercial pilot even though technically I have never been one. I certainly have been close enough to the Eastern situation to know as much as anyone about that screwed up mess.

Your intelligent response was to stick it. Well frankly I respected many on both sides of that situation and would never label any one involved anything. Each did what they thought was right. From where I sit, they were all victims of an ego bigger than Lorenzo ever had in Charlie Bryan.

Over the years I have seen this industry go from a professional group of admired individuals respected across the the board of all business to a group of snotty, smartmouthed, arrogant asses, who spout the holy spiel like Stepford wives with little appreciation for just how good they have it. If it as awful as they say, they should go find employment elsewhere.

I like others got into this because of that very approach. Did not like what I was doing even though very successful at it, quit, and went looking for a new business. You all want to know who is lowering the bar, look around at yourselves and ALPA leadership who gets paid $550,000 a year in salary and benefits to say he represents the poor and oppressed. If I was an active duty pilot, do you think for a minute I would follow that leadership across the street for a soda let alone anything else.

 

[Bill Nelson]

SCABS are for eatin'. Everyone eat a SCAB or two and we can save this industry.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

If it as awful as they say, they should go find employment elsewhere.

Did not like what I was doing even though very successful at it, quit, and went looking for a new business. You all want to know who is lowering the bar, look around at yourselves and ALPA leadership who gets paid $550,000 a year in salary and benefits to say he represents the poor and oppressed. If I was an active duty pilot, do you think for a minute I would follow that leadership across the street for a soda let alone anything else.

True, ALPA isn't without warts, but what is your proposed alternative? Look at what is happening around the industry WITH some semblence of representation and unity. Are you saying we should just go union-free? How would you propose a pilot group obtain fair pay for their work? What bargaining power does a labor group have besides a strike? I can't think of any. That being established, that power is nullified by line-crossing. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I can't think of any other way for labor to negotiate a contract other than the group being unified. I'm curious to hear of other options.

 

[Publishers]

company

I have a good deal less problem with a union situtation like American where the union is dealing with a particular company. An ALPA was what it used to be because of regulation.

The biggest problem you face is the kind of situation that Eastern had. One group gets into a pissing match adn wants everyone else to go along. This would be like Woerth getting into a test of wills with one airline president, he is trying to make a point across the industry and calls a strike even though most of the actual company people are close to a settlement. Then, you turn around and ask flight attendants and mechanics to go out as well and not cross the line. Now some poor flight attendant making $18k a year is being asked to not work or pay her bills over some argument that has nothing to do with her but a union president raising the bar.

This is considerably different than people in her own company fighting over issues that they all are involved in. This is the kind of crap that has kept this industry screwed up for years and years. It is the kind of crap that enagbled foreign car makers to come in and take over our automobile industry (and that is a situation where most everyone is in the same union). Today the majors are being buried under their own past and a regulated environment that put little premium on keeping your costs in line.

Now you can think that this all is anti union dribble but I would have no problem with it if it worked. What some like Mugs do not seem to understand is that there is a bigger picture than ones own ass. To me, figuring out the big picture is what it is about.

The events after 9/11 in this industry were examples of all that is wrong. Think of what it could have been like if the day after, all the MEC's got together, went into the companies, and said we are willing to take 25% pay cuts for people earning above X, and 18% cuts for people earning X a year. We will change these work rules and help you put together an early retirement plan for those 50 and older. Management would have run, of course theyt did anyway, to Washington and asked for help and received it.

How many people would not have had to go through agony.

Instead, we enter a protracted debate over give backs etc etc and many are furloughed. We live in a sociaety where you have to be in critical condition to do what makes sense in the first place.

 

[mar]

I hate to say it, god knows...

...I myself have been rough on old Mr. Publishers but <gasp> I agree with his last two posts.

Good posting Pub.

The blames lies everywhere: management *and* unions.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Pub,

There is a lot of truth in what you write. However, you don't address my questions. It's easy to point to everything that is wrong. Alternatives to collective bargaining? Bargaining strength other than the threat of strike? Options when the bargaining fails other than strike? Effectiveness of said strike when scabs cross the line? Again, I'm not a big fan of ALPA, even though I'm a member, but I'll not sit back and let someone tell me it's okay to be a scab. It's not okay. At least nobody has been able to convince me so far, but I'm open for alternatives. Standing by to copy those alternatives...

 

[MW44]

Pub,

I disagree with your post. You imply that things would have turned out much better if the pilot groups had agreed to certain cuts the day after 9/11. Months after 9/11 most industry analysts agreed that the rebound wasn't more than a year or so away. Nobody knew that business travellers were going to fundamentally change the way they travelled. Are the pilot groups supposed to give up years of gains immediately after every disaster that hits our country or industry? How was anybody supposed to know that 3 years after 9/11 our industry would still be in the dumps. Your hindsight is pretty good.


Also your post implies that pilot wages are directly related to furloughs. I think that is total BS. The very day after 9/11 American pilots were making more than 20% less than Dal and Ual pilots. Did that keep American from furloughing? Did that spare the junior Amr pilots any agony? In fact I think they have furloughed the most even after taking paycuts ontop of their already inferior wages. Not long after 9/11 Us Airways pilots had given up more than 40% and completely lost their retirements. Ual pilots gave up 30% across the board and did that result in any callbacks?

What about Dal. I think that an Amr 777 capt makes 13k per month and the very same captain at DAL makes 23k/ month. According to your logic Amr should be calling back all their furloughs and Dal should be going out of business. That's not the case. Obviously Dal has their problems but I think it's safe to say that despite the recent rhetoric Dal is more financially stable than amr. You seem to think that pilot givebacks are directly related to the bottom line. I think that Pan am, TWA, Us Airways, etc. have all proved that cutting pilot salaries by X% does not save a company.

Finally you seem to be so enamored with management types. Why didn't they take cuts after 9/11? Why did they give themselves hidden raises through bonuses, stock options, ch11 proof pensions? In fact Seigel got paid a bonus for getting the Airways unions to take cuts! What does that say to the troops.

 

[bafanguy]

Finally you seem to be so enamored with management types. Why didn't they take cuts after 9/11? Why did they give themselves hidden raises through bonuses, stock options, ch11 proof pensions? In fact Seigel got paid a bonus for getting the Airways unions to take cuts! What does that say to the troops.[/QUOTE]MW44,

Why did they do those things you mentioned ? Because they always have and always will ( look at airline history ) !!! It's like the WX, don't curse it, just plan around it. This issue has been a sticking point in many people's thinking when it comes to have to navigate the airline's problems. It has been a big problem at DAL. What these people do is reprehensible and outrage is normal from employees. Leo Mullin and his Band of Merry Men should all be horse whipped.

My answer to people is: ' GET...FRIGGIN'...OVER IT !!!!!!!!!!!! " You better plan for what YOU are going to get, act accordingly, and forget what THEY got since they're going to get it regardless of how mad you get. Digging in one's heels because he's mad at the pencil monkeys and refusing to act in one's own personal best long-term interest is foolish. You've got a lot bigger problems that how much the "suits" got.

 

[MW44]

agreed -

I still would argue that employee (specifically pilot) concessions have little or no effect on an airlines' success. Look at Us Airways and Ual whose pilot groups have given massive concessions and their respective airlines are still in the dumps. Compare them to Dal whose pilots are probably making double what Us Airways pilots pull in and Airways is about to go out of business while Delta is arguably still the healthiest of the legacy carriers. For a few years now Airways has focused solely on pilot costs and the result is they have done nothing in the way of inovation or attracting new business. I was arguing with Pubs assertion that pilot concessions result in less furloughs and "agony" for employees. I don't buy it.

 

[Publishers]

look at the factors

The fundamental thing that I am pointing out is that in this industry, labor comes to the table usually at the last moment. By then the coffers of the company have been gone through and either bankruptcy or other situations are dominating the airline. If labor and management had acted together within a few days, there would have been fewer furloughs and more chance for survival. When I say labor, I mean all the unions involved not just pilots.

Is that all that was required== no.

Let me address a few of your other points. First we cannot dismiss the state of the particular carrier at the time of the attack. Secondly, we cannot ignore that airlines were losing business before 9/11 due to the economy sinking. The example would be America West which was expected by many to be out of business prior to 9/11. They ended up doing a better job that UAL or Airways.

I heard absolutely no one thinking things were going to be back to normal in a year. If you thought that my hindsight is 20/20, then you did not read any of my interviews during that time. In fact, I indicated that not only would this take four or five years to recover, that if there was another event, the industry would stay in the toliet for an indeterminable time. Furthermore the business traveler had made up less and less of the total passengers flying on non discount tickets.

I will not try to defend the actions of some management because if you think that I do not fault them, your wrong. On the other hand, the David Seigel situation was different. His bonus was not a bonus but part of his contract to come there in the first place and even make the effort. A company wants you to fly for them, you say this is how much it takes me to leave my deal where I am at, and furthermore you want a payment of XX if it does not work out. That was the deal they made him to go there. His weakness was not being able to develope a marketing plan to get out of the mess they were in.

One great weakness of these carriers is that very few of the management types had actively had to deal with this kind of adversity before. They did not do a good job. Leo and Don particularly looked like idiots.