Safety pilot on an IFR flight plan

[Bernoulli]

Can an instrument rated pilot file an IFR flight plan and then let an instrument student fly the plane? In other words, rather than put the student uder the hood in VFR conditions, can an IFR rated pilot act as a safety pilot in IFR conditions?

 

[JimNtexas]

Can an instrument rated pilot file an IFR flight plan and then let an instrument student fly the plane? In other words, rather than put the student uder the hood in VFR conditions, can an IFR rated pilot act as a safety pilot in IFR conditions?

There is no such thing as "a safety pilot in IFR conditions". Safety pilots are there to watch for other traffice while in VMC conditions while the pilot flying trains with a vision limiting device. As soon as you enter IMC the safety pilot in becomes a passenger unless a copilot is otherwise required.

Part 91 does not prohibit the pilot-in-command from letting a passenger manipulate the controls, nor does part 91 say which seat the PIC has to sit in.

Of course if something goes wrong the FAA could find you were engaged in a careless or recklless operation.

Unless you are a CFII or are otherwise very comfortable with flying IFR from the right seat, you'd better think twice about this.

 

[Lead Sled]

I'll second what JimNTexas said. You're going to be PIC and you're going to be betting your violation-free record that your IFR student pilot buddy can keep his altitude with in 300' of your assigned altitude for the entire time he's flying. Other than that, it would be a worthwhile experience for him to sit and observe you "work the system". Let him watch, not fly - he can't log the time any way.

Lead Sled

 

[sky37d]

If the instrument rated pilot is a CFII, and answer is a resounding yes. I did most of my instrument training in actual IMC, in the airplane. Now, not knowing the legalities, my instructor was never PIC. I was always PIC, and it was dual instruction. Logged as such, signed off.

Now, if you are not a CFII, you can do it, however you legally have to file the flight plan. And, if you are not the CFII, he can't log the time, and you put yourself at jeopardy.

 

[PA-44Typed]

However, in VMC the safety pilot is still required if the pilot is under the hood.

 

[Speedtree]

Anytime you have a pilot wearing a hood you should have a safety pilot. If you are in solid IFR and one guy is wearing a hood what's the point?

If you are a student and logging dual received you are not PIC in my interpretation. I know this is an old argument but if the shiit hits the fan guess who the FAA/NTSB is going to say was the PIC. The guy with the most ratings/experience. And in case you think you are the sole manipulator of the controls guess again. The CFI can take the airplane anytime he/she wants. The only reason you happen to be the sole manipulator on any given flight is that you didn't screw up enough to need them to do it. I am nervous about sleeping in the back of a small aircraft when the guys up front are less experienced than I am.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you are a student and logging dual received you are not PIC in my interpretation.

If you're talking under IFR or in weather conditions less than VFR and the student is not already instrument rated, of course not. I've never heard anyone claim that such a person can =ever= act as PIC.

 

[Uncle Sparky]

Bernoulli, I know this is a carry-over from the other thread. I don't think you're being clear enough though. The only reason I'm budding in is because that I feel I got this ball rolling in the first place and now I'm curious as well.
For anyone reading: Does anyone know if a CFI(not CFII) can file an IFR, act as "safety pilot", have the student fly it in VMC/IMC or even fly an INSTRUMENT flight, period, legally and can the student log the time? If so, what reference?

 

[LarryinTN]

if you are not the CFII, he can't log the time, and you put yourself at jeopardy.

Why not? If he is rated in the category and class then he can log PIC anytime he is sole manipulator of the controls. There is no requirement for a pilot to be legally able to ACT as PIC in order for him to LOG PIC.

 

[LarryinTN]

Does anyone know if a CFI(not CFII) can file an IFR, act as "safety pilot", have the student fly it in VMC/IMC or even fly an INSTRUMENT flight, period, legally and can the student log the time? If so, what reference?

Any instrument rated pilot can be the PIC. [14CFR61.3(e)] Any non-instrument rated pilot with the appropriate category and class rating can LOG PIC for the time during which he is sole manipulator of the controls. [14CFR61.51]

 

[Lead Sled]

If you're talking under IFR or in weather conditions less than VFR and the student is not already instrument rated, of course not. I've never heard anyone claim that such a person can =ever= act as PIC.

Nor can a non-instrument rated pilot file an IFR flight plan even if it's flown entirely in VMC.

Can an instrument rated pilot file an IFR flight plan and then let an instrument student fly the plane? In other words, rather than put the student uder the hood in VFR conditions, can an IFR rated pilot act as a safety pilot in IFR conditions?

I'm taking his question at face value and there is not a CFI or CFII involved. The answer to his question is yes of course, but...

What really is to be gained? Like I said in the previous post, the IR pilot is the PIC and you're going to be betting your violation-free record that your IFR student pilot buddy can keep his altitude with in 300' of your assigned altitude for the entire time he's flying. Other than that, it would be a worthwhile experience for him to sit and observe you "work the system". Let him watch, not fly. He can't log the time in IMC unless he is instrument rated or with an instructor. Am I wrong here?

Lead Sled

 

[midlifeflyer]

He can't log the time in IMC unless he is instrument rated or with an instructor. Am I wrong here?

Yes, I think you are wrong on this one point. As it's been interpreted, the authority to log instrument time for a recreational or higher pilot is not based on having an instrument rating or being with a CFI. (I am of course assuming that when Bernoulli says "instrument student" he means a private pilot who is working on his instryment rating) The flying pilot may log the time if the pilot has the proper =aircraft= ratings and the flight conditions consist of actual IMC.

==============================
Logging instrument flight time.
(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
==============================

Notice. Nothing about who else is on board at the time. Arguably, there needs to be some kind of logable "flight time", but the part of the rule that allows the sole manipulator to log PIC based only on being the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft the pilot is rated for satisfies that requirement. I don't see anything else in 61.51 (the entire known universe of logging rules) that bases logging instrument time on the presence of a CFI.

There's also the famous "moonless night" FAA Legal opinion that says that a non-instrument rated pilot may log actual instrument time even when alone in the airplane.

On the side issue of the risk to the instrument-rated pilot's cerrtifciate, I figure that Bernoulli is a big boy and can make a decision about the acceptability of that risk for himself. I certainly wouldn't have done it in IMC before I became a II, but that'sjust me.

 

[lawfly]

Logging questions aside, the legal PIC must be instrument rated (and current) to fly under IFR. Also, "safety pilot" is applicable to SIMULATED instrument flight; FAR 61.51 (g)(3), which contemplates currency for instrument pilots under 61.57(c), and FAR 109.109(b), relating to simulated instrument flight. Of possible interest is whether there are any potential insurance coverage problems when non-CFII flying right seat with non-instrument-rated pilot in left seat, on an IFR flight plan, especially under IMC. Might want to confirm insurance coverage. Depending on who owns the a/c (owner's policy), whether you are an independent CFI (your own CFI policy) or with a flight school (its policy).