Safety is For Sale at CAL

[100/hour/5y]

Lima trip IRO open today... Blocked 7:59 going down & 7:53 coming home... never had an IRO until 2months ago... The Company added a IRO because the stream of ASAP reports dealing with Fatigue and safety of flight issues and flights with releases +8hrs..
Anyways, big storm today... Sch JMing... 0 756 fo's left today... Iro Lima trip in opentime... We have a Fo that wants to trade his Cdg iro for Lima... No prob right????
Not... Sch cnx iro pairing saying that it's not FAR required...
Safety is for Sale at CAL.... Don't fly us!

 

[planejockey]

I am sure the news media would love to hear that.

 

[GuppyWN]

8 block hours is FAR legal. I don't see the problem. I was scheduled to fly 7:55 and 7:40 the past two days. Granted I had 3 legs and 2 30 minute "breaks" in there each day.

What would you like the FAA flight time limit to be to feel safe? Maybe I'm missing something but unless dispatch is doing something abnormal to get the block time below 8 hours then just go to work, bust it out and go home.

Gup

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Before we started losing flying on the Saabs we had a 3 day trip that was 23.5 hours, 7/6/7 leg days. We could just about 30 in 7 just off that one pairing.

 

[aa73]

8 block hours is FAR legal. I don't see the problem. I was scheduled to fly 7:55 and 7:40 the past two days. Granted I had 3 legs and 2 30 minute "breaks" in there each day.

What would you like the FAA flight time limit to be to feel safe? Maybe I'm missing something but unless dispatch is doing something abnormal to get the block time below 8 hours then just go to work, bust it out and go home.

Gup

No offense Gup, but not quite the same animal when doing an all nighter into mountainous terrain where the controllers barely speak English and will send you into the rocks if you are not vigilant. On top of that, you've been planning your rest around a 3 man operation and they change it to 2 man at the last minute - that's got a Fatigue call written all over it.

Legal does not = safe.

 

[GuppyWN]

Thanks. There's always more to the story. I don't live in the all-nighter and "what'd he say" mindset.

Gup

 

[densoo]

Plus, what is standard practice? Sometimes that is an indicator of accepted safety. What do other airlines do on international redeyes, especially over the ocean. I'm sure the media would be all over CAL if they only knew that they use just two pilots when industry standard and practice is likely 3 pilots at all other airlines. Redeye international is a different animal. Just ask the pax on the Europe-EWR flight whose CA dropped dead over the Atlantic or the families of the Air France that disappeared (not than an extra pilot would have helped, but it shows that unexpected stuff happens out there and you wouldn't want to face some of it with just two pilots).

Saying the FAA doesn't require it is like the Colgan spokesman after the Buffalo accident saying "the FAA doesn't require upset training so we don't do it." Reporter should have come right back with "What I hear you saying is that Colgan does the absolutely minimum the FAA requires, and no more. So, there is nothing Colgan does beyond the FAA minimum?" When the Colgan spokesman would say "Well, that's not true. We do exceed FAA minimum standards in many areas." Reporter could say, "then why didn't you exceed FAA standards for upset training? Might have saved 49 lives."

If CAL uses 3 pilots for scheduling international redeyes, then they should use 3 pilots for flying international redeyes.

The larger issue though is that CAL cuts a lot of things very close to the bone. Contracts written by airline pilots for airline pilots add the extra safety margin above the FAA minimum because the pilots live the rules and know what is needed over the long haul. Not having a union for many years at CAL largely gutted the work rules to the FAA minimums, and even those sometimes have to be contested and fought over. It is a long road back to get these work rules back in place and enforced.

 

[say again]

Whats an IRO?

 

[Xtremepilot]

International Relief Officer, usually a First Officer that sits in the cockpit jumpseat for taxi, takeoff, climb, descent, and taxi in. He/she also relieves each crew member so that they may take a rest break, as required by the FARs on flights in excess of eight hours (1 IRO needed) or 12 hours (2 IROs needed).

 

[say again]

Gracias. Had an idea it was for that, but second guessed myself after I saw the flight blocked for under 8 hrs

 

[semperfido]

help me understand this, 8 hrs, RON, then 8 hrs back? If that is the case, I don't see the problem.

 

[CaptWidgeon]

I don't live in the all-nighter and "what'd he say" mindset.

Gup

you fly in the northeast much? or are you one of them??? boston and ny center, it's a whole other world.

:cartman:

 

[Xtremepilot]

help me understand this, 8 hrs, RON, then 8 hrs back? If that is the case, I don't see the problem.

Sometimes there is more thought about the flight than just the flight time. Other considerations include time of flight (night), challenges encountered during the flight (international, high terrain, fatigue), and standard practice in the industry.

I would put a lot of money on the fact that Continental Airlines flies more flights with a block time of 7:55-8:00 than any other carrier. they do this for ONE reason only: at 8 hrs or less, you don't need a third pilot (this saves both money and the fact that you can staff fewer pilots overall because you only have two pilots heading towards that 1000/year mark vs. 3)

The real point here is this: when the pairings (trips) were awarded to pilots last month, this flight down to Lima had three pilots scheduled to operate it, because either management thought we were overstaffed and didn't want a pilot sitting at home when he/she could fly, or they thought it would enhance the safety of the operation. then, suddenly a snow storm hits the northeast and a pilot would like to work the EWR-LIM trip vs. whatever he/she was scheduled to do. Scheduling made a conscious decision to go back on their initial decision to operate LIM as a three man crew (selling safety).

 

[bizicmo]

I don't understand how people can't pass the checkride on the 737 as single pilot thus eliminating the discussion about the third pilot and all.

 

[100/hour/5y]

Just checked my log book and the last 3 times going down and back to Lima I block over 8hrs each way while they were sch going down 8hrs and coming home 7:57 No IRO was need for the pairing under or= 8hrs blocked however the FA's got crew rest going down to Lima while the 2 pilots didn't...
I bet everyone was happy in the back knowing that the FA's were well rested for the breakfast, while the 2 pilots upfront are struggling to stay awake...

 

[semperfido]

I bet everyone was happy in the back know that the FA's were well rested for the breakfast, while the 2 pilots upfront are struggling to stay awake...

Now I know you are joking. :erm:

 

[b707guy]

help me understand this, 8 hrs, RON, then 8 hrs back? If that is the case, I don't see the problem.

Besides the other points made, sometimes the legal-length RON is hardly restful with hair-raising 45-minute cab-of-death shuttle to the hotel, lengthy check-in, key doesn't work when you get to the room, etc etc, you name it and before you know it, you have only 6 hours to the wake-up call. Not saying that's the case here, but all the other factors at play can sure make for a very exhausting trip.

 

[semperfido]

imp:If we had a third pilot for an 8 hr flight, I would feel spoiled.

 

[100/hour/5y]

Now I know you are joking. :erm:

I wish I was... The FA's get crew rest and pilots don't... Happens a lot at Cal... Mostly Lima, LHR, MAN, LIS...

CAL Sucks!

 

[Ben Franklin]

Just checked my log book and the last 3 times going down and back to Lima I block over 8hrs each way while they were sch going down 8hrs and coming home 7:57 No IRO was need for the pairing under or= 8hrs blocked however the FA's got crew rest going down to Lima while the 2 pilots didn't...

1. Of course you DID fill out 6 ASAP reports, one for each flight complaining about how fatigued you were, right?

2. Of course you DID call in fatigued before one/most/all of the legs (as you said you'd do in a previous post)?

3. How did you personally rest for these 6 legs vs. how do you personally rest for the same legs but with an IRO?

4. Of course, you HAVE bid the 737 or 777 since you think 2-pilot 7:57 red eyes are unsafe?

5. Of course, you HAVE alerted the media to this practice to seek some remedy or other public attention?

6. Of course, you've written all of your union/elected officials about this too?

7. Why didn't you stay at Express?

8. Why haven't you quit and gone somewhere else to fly?

9. Which airlines are better than CAL, in your opinion and why?

10. Out of the ones from #9 above, have any done anything recently to warrant a post like this on FI (safety for sale at xxx)?

TIA


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[flygirlqt]

11 How aggressive has CALAPA been in notifying the FAA of these block time discrepancies?

 

[mamba20]

Just checked my log book and the last 3 times going down and back to Lima I block over 8hrs each way while they were sch going down 8hrs and coming home 7:57 No IRO was need for the pairing under or= 8hrs blocked however the FA's got crew rest going down to Lima while the 2 pilots didn't...
I bet everyone was happy in the back knowing that the FA's were well rested for the breakfast, while the 2 pilots upfront are struggling to stay awake...

File and ASAP EACH time this happens

 

[Homer Jay]

IRO's both ways MUST be in the next contract.

 

[100/hour/5y]

Yes I did and I do file ASAP reports for any flights that block over 8hrs with 2 man crew... 21 reports dealing with flights over 8hrs block with 2 man crew most from the UK and a couple from LIS, MAD and BCN...
I have called in Fatigue 3 times at CAL... all 3 times been pressure by C/S to fly and had chief Pilots call me on each event... ASAP filed
IF planning a flight with a IRO, I don't take a nap in the afternoon... No IRO, I take a nap...

 

[100/hour/5y]

Why is it on Saturday the STT turn has a IRO on the 757 but the rest seat is in coach and on Sunday the same turn on the 737 has a rest seat in 1st class???

Reason... Safety is for sale at CAL

 

[Ben Franklin]

Why is it on Saturday the STT turn has a IRO on the 757 but the rest seat is in coach and on Sunday the same turn on the 737 has a rest seat in 1st class???

Reason... Safety is for sale at CAL

The reason is that 737 First Class crew rest (1B) is specifically codified in our FOM. Putting the crew member anywhere else would be an FOM/FAR violation.

The 757/767 BF crew rest seat requirement was removed from the FOM back in 2006- therefore, no longer an FAA requirement.

If you can prove that the FAA (or anyone) got money to approve the change for the 757/767 while keeping the 737 the same, then safety is for sale at CAL.

My guess is that the change on the 757/767 was done due to the high transatlantic BF tickets that were being bought/experienced during the 2004 - early 2007 timeframe.

Should those legs requiring an IRO on the 737 begin to experience similar or higher demand, I'd bet that the IRO first class seating on the 737 is removed from the FOM quickly and silently, as well.

Even if it's in the contract, it's fly now grieve later and we still may NEVER see a BF seat on the 757/767. Some people just don't get this. Putting it in the contract is great, it should be in there and I will vote "NO" if it's not.

Keep in mind that it will be just one more clause for the company to disregard. The FAA RARELY gets involved in "contractual issues" between labor and management. The FAA will ALWAYS get involved if the company is violating the FOM.

food for thought.


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[densoo]

"no beneficial sleep" in coach

"Based on laboratory data and ergonomic considerations, sleep in a Class IV seat is considered to be degraded to 0% of bunk/Class I seat rest (i.e. it provides no beneficial sleep)." http://ikregeer.nl/document/BLG17046

FAA knows it, CAL knows it. Both will wait for the incident to declare "well, we should rethink that one." Think Buffalo accident. It's cheaper to pay the lawsuits later than to pay the pilots now. That's because the cost of lawsuits will be borne by their insurance at some undetermined point in the future. The cost of pilots is borne by the company, now. Shortsighted, but it is a "best business" practice.

 

[100/hour/5y]

http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/pri...21&id=10917074

Teamsters Members Conduct Informational Picketing
WASHINGTON, Dec. 21 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Mechanics for Continental Airlines on Tuesday will engage in informational picketing at the airline's major hubs in Newark, Cleveland, Orlando, Houston, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle. The mechanics are represented by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.
The Teamsters mechanics will pass out literature to the flying public explaining the importance of maintenance work and their complaints with Continental CAL.
The Teamsters and Continental management have been bargaining for more than a year to renew the collective bargaining agreement covering more than 3,600 mechanics.
Negotiations stalled after the company refused to budge from its initial economic proposal in September. Teamsters mechanics are upset that they have been without a raise for seven years. The company has made permanent pay cuts that were instituted as an emergency cost-saving measure to avoid bankruptcy in 2005.
A federal mediator appointed by the National Mediation Board will oversee negotiations starting in January. If mediated negotiations do not result in an agreement, the NMB may ultimately allow the mechanics to exercise self help.
Founded in 1903, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters represents 1.4 million hardworking men and women in the United States, Canada and Puerto Rico.
SOURCE International Brotherhood of Teamsters
Copyright 2009 PR Newswire
__________________

 

[rk772]

I don't understand how people can't pass the checkride on the 737 as single pilot thus eliminating the discussion about the third pilot and all.

What are you talking about?